This page is part of the archives of the IshCon.org discussion forums, as they existed from November 2002 to January 2007. Some links and other content references may be outdated or broken. For more information about IshCon, visit www.ishcon.org.
Topic: Mapping civilization
Part of the forum "Ishmael and Saving the World" in the IshCon Forum Archive
| Poster and Date | Post |
| Bongcart Wed Feb 23rd, 2005 at 01:06 PM |
Id like to challenge you all to study the civilization and create a map out of it. Find its strong lines, its weak spots, its function. Combine with how humans reacts in such circumstances. etc. write or draw, its up to you. Would be a useful asset and it could also be a fun experience! You can mail me your suggestions here: barking_dog3@hotmail.com or present them on this thread. Maybe someone who has a webpage could give a little space and present the images there... would be interesting to see how people look at civilization. Remember that everything can be understood, but not everything at once... 8O |
| maha Wed Feb 23rd, 2005 at 03:46 PM |
Well Bongcart, to quote Daniel Quinn, Quote: Civilization isn't a geographical territory, it's a social and economic territory where pharaohs reign and pyramids are built by the masses. Similarly, beyond civilization isn't a geographical territory, it's a social and economic territory where people in open tribes pursue goals that may or may not be recognizably "civilized." In light of that statement, I don't know how one would interpret "civilization" at least in an abstract visual form. I'm an artist, but I would need more to go on than what you have provided. So I guess I'm asking what medium or format are you looking for? Perhaps you have a sample or an example yourself...for us to work from. Oh, and set up a blog on blogspot.com if you are looking for free webspace. |
| ProjectPurity Wed Feb 23rd, 2005 at 06:20 PM |
I too am interested in further understanding of the result that you have intended to produce here. Perhapse a crude example to get the group going? I have webspace, by the way, if anyone needs to use it temporarily for this project, please send me a Personal Message. |
| Bongcart Thu Feb 24th, 2005 at 03:27 AM |
I feel like Im falling backwards.... fallling..... backwards.... into a big pool of sheeps... Smart up people! Jesus!! |
| Ludi Thu Feb 24th, 2005 at 08:15 AM |
Bongcart, I certainly hope your response encourages absolutely no one to participate in your project, whatever it is. Excellent way to get people to work with you - insult them! Good plan! |
| Bongcart Thu Feb 24th, 2005 at 08:22 AM |
Ah fuck you |
| Ludi Thu Feb 24th, 2005 at 08:39 AM |
And there he goes again! What a winner! :D |
| maha Thu Feb 24th, 2005 at 08:42 AM |
Okay, there is no need for this to turn into a flame war. Fuck's can be fun, but let's leave them for our locker room conversations. No offense Bongcart, but you kind of set the tone for misunderstanding in your first sentence with "the civilization." And also, the subsequent sentences seemed to be unclear, as far as what you are looking for precisely. If I was starting my own thread, I would not only try to articulate my thoughts as clearly as possible, but I definitely would not insult people who expressed interest in helping you (to accomplish whatever it is that you are trying to accomplish...which still remains unknown to all of us.) And dude, telling me and projectpurity to smarten up...tsk tsk. I don't know why you would pick two highly intelligent people like us to direct that remark towards. Maybe you were just frustrated or joking...oh well, I don't really care to be honest. In fact, as a testament to my character, I'm willing to overlook you snide comments and let you redeem yourself by simply explaining your original post...that is, if you're willing. p.s. Strike the "highly" from the phrase 'highly intelligent' in reference to discribing projectpurity. He did kind of post the same thing twice. Sorry to rag on you dude. :wink: |
| Bongcart Thu Feb 24th, 2005 at 08:47 AM |
Dude, do you know what the civilization is? There is nothing to explain that isnt obvious allready Just draw something, dude! |
| maha Thu Feb 24th, 2005 at 08:56 AM |
STEP AWAY FROM THE BONG...You may have indeed smoked yourself stupid at this point Bongcart. Serious potential for "dumbass of the year" candidacy. And as I pound in the last few nails to this coffin of a thread (which I'm sure silas will soon lock and bury), I just want to say...LOOOHOOOSSSS----AHERRRR! (to paraphrase Jim Carey) |
| Bongcart Thu Feb 24th, 2005 at 09:18 AM |
haha Maha, try to analyse yourself out of a wet bag you clone.. THAT.DOES.NOT.COMPUTE..Bzzzzz whats the deal with all the need for instructions? where is your own initiatives and wills? Youre like a bunch of robots getting ready for programming... for crying out loud |
| maha Thu Feb 24th, 2005 at 09:59 AM |
My will and inititiative is not comprised of racking my brain to concoct a conceptual idea of someone else's half-thought out idea. But since you seem to be at least partially interested in your original request, I do have some ideas. I just don't know if I've healed yet...emotionally that is. It got pretty scary for a while. Evwy body wuz usin' bad wuds and stuff. :cry: |
| PiperErickson Thu Feb 24th, 2005 at 05:35 PM |
Hi everyone, I hope Silas doesn't lock up this thread, because there's a lot to be learned here. Bongcart, your idea sounds very interesting. I'd like to add something to it, but I'm not sure where to begin. Could you provide me a start? If not, I'd probably start at "where is civilization strongest". I think civilization is strongest at keeping people afraid. Afraid of doing anything that isn't lock-step with how people are supposed to act: 9-5 till your 65. Right now I'm introducing Quinn to Anyways, I respectfully disagree with the disrespect people are showing to one another. An unfortunate truth: being disrespectful is usually a mistake. Being disrespectful to someone who's being disrespectful is making that same mistake. Take care you guys :) - Joe |
| etbnc Thu Feb 24th, 2005 at 06:02 PM |
Thanks for taking this approach, Joe. It's easy for us to forget to acknowledge that we find value in other people's contributions. But when we remember, it can be a way to increase the combined value of our shared conversation. So, you envision a diagram that you might use in conversation. Do you think it would be useful to include the feedback cycle of "Make products <--> Buy Products"? Eric |
| PiperErickson Thu Feb 24th, 2005 at 06:48 PM |
"etbnc" wrote: Thanks for taking this approach, Joe. It's easy for us to forget to acknowledge that we find value in other people's contributions. But when we remember, it can be a way to increase the combined value of our shared conversation. So, you envision a diagram that you might use in conversation. Do you think it would be useful to include the feedback cycle of "Make products <--> Buy Products"? Hi Eric, Totally agreed on the first point, people don't acknowledge each other's contributions enough. :( My girlfriend and I work really hard on that, and it is one of those things that lubricates the whole relationship. The product circle (from Ishmael, no?) is a great addition. The word "consumer" leaves a bad taste in my mouth, I think it does for other people, too. I think that product circle points out something very interesting! :) - Joe |
| Bongcart Fri Feb 25th, 2005 at 07:09 AM |
Joe Its up to you to find a way to map civilization, you could for example begind with its strongholds. You could find out how the hierarchy works. How people are getting divided inside it and how that could affect their mental health and such things. What happends to group identities in hierarchies? I have found that it always seem to become negative. What do I mean? I mean that when people meet at the job they involve themselfes in the fake identity of a worker, and at the breaks they involve themselfes in the group identity as working people in a working place. The reason the group identity is negative is because it makes people feel that they doesnt lose as much by not truly belonging to it. Its there, and has its little belonging, in the collective misery, but if they could get out of it it wouldnt be much of a loss. The hierarchy wins with a negative group identity, and it would lose if the group identity was positive. Imagine what would happend if the group itself became the most important thing at the working place. The hierarchy wouldnt work anymore, people wouldnt be at their respective specialized tasks, they would be sitting around talking and drinking beer, or maybe go out and do some sports or maybe start picking up women and having wild orgies! (not impossible) The passion of life would be what mattered, and not the strict formula of the hierarchy. Thats one thing to recognize and maybe make a picture of. I think words are great, but they are not enough if we are to visualize what we have been through our entire lifes, to express all the feelings that comes with breaking free from the formulas of oppression. |
| Bongcart Fri Feb 25th, 2005 at 08:10 AM |
We all know that living in a hierarchy isnt working at this time. I think hierarchies are always bad for people, the question is how it affects us, what happends with us when we live in them? In order to get a better handle on what has happened to us takers so we can find new ways of living. We all also know that the taker mythology grew out of the hierarchial way of living. So searching for a new mythology is pointless. What we need to do is just get in touch with who we are. Because thats what the mythology prevents us from understanding. The pattern in people who are emotionally dysfunctional is to me very similar, it doesnt matter if youre talking about schizophrenics, borderlines, neurotics, ADHD, Aspbergers syndrome, or any other of these syndromes. The pattern is that the person is going through a tough period and is then putting a lid on the experience and denies the feelings, this creates a double nature and a destructive life pattern. To try to get such a person to remember what happened is the only way I know of to make that person heal. The person has to be confronted with the memory. So I prefer to take a psychological stance to understand "civilization", or any hierarchy that happends to pop up. A person who is dysfunctional is having a lot of defenses against getting in touch with that inner pain, and the taker mythology is the civilized peoples collective defense against connecting with the pain. I think about people who put on a happy face, but beneath it there is a deep sorrow. Kinda like the clown. I dont really remember the name of the movie but its about a tribal people living in Island or Greenland, and they are attacked by another people, who are evil bandits. And they talk about their origin and say that they have forgotten who they are. So they wander around bringing destruction all over the place. Its the same pattern with anyone who carries a painful memory, alcoholism, drug abuse, child molestation, wife beatings, unprovoked violence... The plan for making people like that seems to be much part of the hierarhial life, it seeks to alienate people from eachother, alienate freelings from people, alienate people from their history, from their identity. A divide and conquer quality of hierarchial systems. Im just bringing this in here again to this thread because I think its cruicial to understand if one wants to map the civilization and understand it, and what the people inside it are going through, despite of everything they say. You all know the amazing ability of drug addicts and alcoholics to lie. And mother culture is that big cluster of lies that prevents people from getting in touch with who they are and be what they are. This proposition to map civilization could help us all to get a better handle on ourselfes and find a safe spot to stand on while the world is raging around us. |
| maha Fri Feb 25th, 2005 at 11:15 AM |
Wow, finally he gives us a little something to work with. Frankly, it was quite good, as bittersweet as that feels to say at this point. Bongcart, I don't think you need a map, a picture, a drawing, or whatever to explain what you are wanting. You need to just say it, write it, and articulate in words somehow, what your suspicions are...and you have done that, and quite nicely I'll add again. What you're talking about is a complex web of relationships, between people, cultures, economic and social classess, etc...I can tell you as an artist of 25 years, that it's gonna be hard to draw that. But I will lend my artistic skills if someone has an idea that can be explained more simply. |
| Bongcart Fri Feb 25th, 2005 at 11:46 AM |
maha thats great, youre an artist! I didnt mean that this "project" would have to be solely about mapping the mechanic function of the civilization... but that was my main motivator, it can be about the feeling you get when you watch people waiting at a bus stop, or the emotional undercurrents of the desk clerk, something you have been through yourself perhaps... I dont have any advices on what to create, I just think personally that digging where you stand is the most promising spot to begin. The question is "what is the civilization?" and express it somehow. |
| JCamasto Fri Feb 25th, 2005 at 02:13 PM |
My vision: Use the color black to represent civilization (fucked uppedness), and proceed to spray paint an entire model globe black. Then put little white pin pricks to indicate unmolested indigenous cultures. And then red sponge marks to represent those folks inbetween the two... Could be somethin' direct like that? -Jim |
| maha Fri Feb 25th, 2005 at 02:16 PM |
Okay, I get it dude. I went back and read your original post and the irony of this whole thread is unraveling before me. At the outset you said that you "challenge" us to come up with a concept of "the civilization", the wording of which I still don't quite get. Anyway, I think you meant this more as an introspective excercise. "A feeling" to use your own words Bongcart--that is stuff that can't be drawn or writen, everyone knows that. You just wanted us to use our little sheep brains and give a creative interpretation of what we thought the civilization is. I have a great personal comprehension of what civilization is, the hierarchy which supports it, and all of that, but I still haven't a fucking clue how I would go about representing all of the intricacies of that bundle of thoughts in any sort of visual diagram or thesis (except maybe a book). :idea: |
| Ludi Fri Feb 25th, 2005 at 02:27 PM |
Quote: The pattern in people who are emotionally dysfunctional is to me very similar, it doesnt matter if youre talking about schizophrenics, borderlines, neurotics, ADHD, Aspbergers syndrome, or any other of these syndromes. The pattern is that the person is going through a tough period and is then putting a lid on the experience and denies the feelings, this creates a double nature and a destructive life pattern. To try to get such a person to remember what happened is the only way I know of to make that person heal. The person has to be confronted with the memory. So I prefer to take a psychological stance to understand "civilization", or any hierarchy that happends to pop up. I know this is a nice theory, but it doesn't stand up to modern psychology or psychiatry. |
| Bongcart Sat Feb 26th, 2005 at 06:16 AM |
Ludi How come? |
| Bongcart Sat Feb 26th, 2005 at 06:18 AM |
Maha Thats not what I meant. Everything can be expressed. However I did say "Not everything at once". |
| maha Sat Feb 26th, 2005 at 09:14 AM |
Bongcart wrote: Quote: Maha, that's not what I meant. ...as I point to a plate full of sardines and say, "The sardines are gone!" [a scene from the (late) john ritter and christopher reeves movie, [i]Noises Off.[/i] Very obscure reference, sorry. Anyway, I liked Jim's suggestion. I was also thinking of a map with "hotspots" indicated with red marks and unaffected areas in blue. Of course, this would be just one piece of the overall picture. But it's a start. Sort of incremental. |
| Bongcart Sat Feb 26th, 2005 at 09:21 AM |
Maybe I need to explain what express means. Instead of keeping everything inside your head you put it into something concrete. I have found that when you try to keep everything inside it turns into a hypostasis or things becomes harder to keep a good structure on. Ludi I believe that expressing oneself is universal. Even if one is trying to deny the feelings and supress them the expression continues, although through denial the expression becomes destructive. This isnt my idea, its well known in psychology. |
| maha Sat Feb 26th, 2005 at 09:45 AM |
Oh I can draw something if you want. I know how to express myself, believe me...you might say it's my forte. So here is my plan. Make a drawing depicting not only geography, but chronology too. That way you could see civilization grow over time, and analyze how it spread, and where. Even color designate areas to indicate agriculture, cities, and populations--human and non. Followed up with a nice little legend or key which revealed what everything meant. Would this not be congruent with what you're talking about Bongcart? |
| Bongcart Sat Feb 26th, 2005 at 09:52 AM |
Maha heh this is getting ridicolous. I simply thought there would be some people in this website who would think it could be fun to make a map of civilization. I am not here to find employees... I feel that many of those who are most active in this website are more interested in sinking into themselfes and turn everything into ideological discussions and let it stay there. Its sad. |
| maha Sat Feb 26th, 2005 at 10:13 AM |
Bongcart wrote: Quote: Maha heh this is getting ridicolous. I simply thought there would be some people in this website who would think it could be fun to make a map of civilization. I am not here to find employees... I feel that many of those who are most active in this website are more interested in sinking into themselfes and turn everything into ideological discussions and let it stay there. Its sad. Who here wants to work for you, not me? I was just coming up with an idea based off of what you said. Is a drawing not "concrete" enough for you? Do you need more substance than that? If so, then what medium do you want it in? I tried writing about it, now I offered to make a drawing, what more do you want. And how is that sinking into myself, if that was directed at me, among others? I am offering to share with others, as well as learning from the experience that you initiated. Bongcart, what is sad is that I continually am failing to grasp where you are coming from, yet I keep overextending myself trying. Language or culture gap going on? Maybe, but my great-grandparents were at least Swedish so that should count for something, (aren't you?) |
| Bongcart Sat Feb 26th, 2005 at 10:28 AM |
Maha... I dont know if I should cry or laugh... Dont be so fucking SUBMISSIVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am not asking favors here, I am not seeking out people to do some job for me, I am just looking for likeminded who MAYBE would LIKE to express what they are going through and then we can PUT THE FUCKING PIECE UP ON A WEBPAGE!!! I am astounded.... a woodpecker should have more brains than this |
| silas Sat Feb 26th, 2005 at 07:14 PM |
We're sorry, you didn't win this round of brinkmanship. Thanks for playing, please try again! Silas |
| This page is part of the archives of the IshCon.org discussion forums, as they existed from November 2002 to January 2007. Some links and other content references may be outdated or broken. For more information about IshCon, visit www.ishcon.org. |