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Topic: OT: derrick jensen discussion listserve created
Part of the forum "Ishmael and Saving the World" in the IshCon Forum Archive
| Poster and Date | Post |
| river Mon Dec 23rd, 2002 at 12:01 PM |
anyone interested can check it out at the link below-river http://groups.yahoo.com/group/derrickjensen_discussion/ |
| silas Mon Dec 23rd, 2002 at 03:22 PM |
Not so offtopic - I just posted a story on the front page with some more Jensen related stuff: http://www.ishcon.org/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=33 |
| Huby7 Thu Mar 6th, 2003 at 01:47 PM |
Is anybody against discussing Derrick Jensen on Ishcon? |
| Nexus Fri Mar 7th, 2003 at 09:00 PM |
Jensen is definitely worth reading and discussing! [ this message was edited by: nexus on 08-03-2003 11:42 ] |
| yang-man Thu Mar 13th, 2003 at 09:53 PM |
I also agree that Derrick Jensen would be worth discussing, because his books reinforce the philosophies given to us by Quinn, only in a different way. Those who like Ismael would probably like A Language Older Than Words or The Culture of Make Believe. They also provide a much more quantitative view of the destruction caused by our society. |
| Huby7 Tue Apr 29th, 2003 at 03:47 PM |
I just got done listening to a interview with Derrick Jensen by Micheal Toms at www.newdimensions.org. If anybody is interested, it is a great interview and well worth your time to listen to! You also can find the interview at www.derrickjensen.org. Just click under the work tab, and than go under published essays. Take Care! |
| Leaverish Tue Apr 29th, 2003 at 08:59 PM |
Hey Huby7, just wanted to comment that i donīt think anybody should be `against` discussing any topic here - if iīm not interested or donīt care for the topic i simply ignore it (this said from a guy who only learned this recently - the hard way). BTW i havenīt read DJ yet, but itīs very high on my `to read` list. One more thing (OT). I hope noone minds, but iīm really trying to push the `community` thread. Without diminishing any other thread here, i think itīs one of the most usefull and beneficiary threads on this forum. Come join the community, all of you!!! Get to know each other, introduce yourselves, and lets have some fun!!!  |
| yonosoymedico Tue Apr 29th, 2003 at 09:17 PM |
no, Id be willing to discuss it.. I also havent read of his stuff(being that I just visited this website, today is the first day Iīve heard of him)... adios adam ...so tell us about him... |
| Huby7 Thu May 1st, 2003 at 05:09 PM |
Derrick Jensen is the Author of, A Language Older Than Words, Listening to the Land and The Culture of Make Believe. I ran across Derrick Jensen on Daniel Quinnīs recommended reading list. Here is what Daniel Quinn said about A Language Older Than Words...."This is what Franz Kafka said a book should be--īan axe for the frozen sea within us.ī The reader should be advised that this is both high praise and sincere warning: īDangerous writing here. Proceed at your own risk.ī A truly wonderful and original work." DQ review of the Culture of Make Believe..."Derrick Jensen is a man driven to stare without flinching at the baleful design of our culture, which encourages us to honor those who wreak the most havoc on the world (and on human lives) and to scorn those who protest against the havoc as opponents of decency and good order. In fact, The Culture of Make Believe so explicitly reveals the intimacy between the murder of the world and "decency and good order" that Iīm surprised any author would dare write it and any publisher would dare bring it to print. It might be said that Jensen is merely preaching to the choir, but, trust me, this is not a sermon the choir has heard before. His analysis of our cultureīs predilection for hatred and destruction will rattle your bones." Jensenīs work is amazing. I highly recommend it! |
| Huby7 Thu May 1st, 2003 at 06:09 PM |
To my surprise, I just got done visiting Amazon.com and learned that Jensen is coming out with a new book in july. It is titled WALKING ON WATER: ON READING, WRITING, AND REVOLUTION. I canīt wait! |
| Huby7 Tue Jun 10th, 2003 at 01:10 PM |
For those who are interested. I just checked into Derrick Jensen's website and found some new articles that he wrote for The Sun Magazine, The Ecologist, and Adbusters. You can find the articles at this link......http://www.derrickjensen.org/essay.html Jensen really knows how to call a spade a spade. |
| YONOSOYMEDlCO Fri Jun 13th, 2003 at 04:24 PM |
Huby7...that last link is great, I need to read more of his stuff.... |
| Huby7 Mon Jun 16th, 2003 at 06:48 PM |
YONO, Jensen really knows how to say it, doesn't he? I don't think there is a day that goes by where I don't think about Jensen's work. A friend of mine, (who has studied philosophy for almost thirty years) said there is nobody who can say it like Jensen. I just ordered his double CD: Stand Up Tragedy. I 'll let you know how it is. Take Care! |
| Steve Thu Jul 3rd, 2003 at 11:19 PM |
"yang-man" wrote: I also agree that Derrick Jensen would be worth discussing, because his books reinforce the philosophies given to us by Quinn, only in a different way.... I think it performs disservice to both authors to lump their philosophies together. I'm finding Jensen's work further from Quinn's all the time. The difference? Vision. Quinn says: "If the world is saved, it will not be by old minds with new programs but by new minds with no programs at all." "Old minds think: How do we stop these bad things from happening? New minds think: How do we make things the way we want them to be?" Jensen is focused on one thing- Civilization needs to be stopped (By any means necessary...). He is currently working on a book about how to take down civilization. His mind is made up-- There's no hope of going beyond civilization. The best thing to do is take civilization down immediately to prevent it from causing any more damage...' This is antithetical to Quinn's idea of finding a new vision or 'another story to be in'. Anybody else see this? Steve |
| Heretic Fri Jul 4th, 2003 at 04:35 AM |
I've read both Language Older than Words and Culture of Make Believe in the last two months and I absolutely loved both of them. I'd quote from them, but they're currently loaned out to friends. :) First off, I have to say that if Jensen's message was so radically different from Quinn's, I don't think it would be listed on the DQ Reading List with the reviews that are there nor would Jensen also have a link to Ishmael.org on his website. Anyway, while Jensen's message seemed much more urgent to me than Quinn's, I still think that they are definitely along the same lines - sustainability. I think you may be misunderstanding what Beyond Civilization is because the goals of both authors is to change the way things are. Moving Beyond Civilization means that we've moved onto a completely new way of living, leaving the Taker culture behind. Whether we get there by halting the Taker juggernaut, as Jensen discusses, or by changing minds and walking away, as Quinn discusses, the goal will still be the same - the destructive culture on the planet will no longer be the most destructive culture on the planet. If you think about it, Ishmael can definitely be considered to be a book about taking down civilization. And the "by any means necessary" label is a little dangerous. One way to stop civilization dead in its tracks would be to just let it continue, something I'm sure both authors are against. |
| Steve Fri Jul 4th, 2003 at 04:10 PM |
"Heretic" wrote: Whether we get there by halting the Taker juggernaut, as Jensen discusses, or by changing minds and walking away, as Quinn discusses, the goal will still be the same - the destructive culture on the planet will no longer be the most destructive culture on the planet. If you think about it, Ishmael can definitely be considered to be a book about taking down civilization. I don't belive they have the same goal. Jensen's goal seems to be making sure that the most destructive culture on the planet is no longer the most destructive culture on the planet. Quinn's goal seems to be saving the world as a human habitat. These aren't necessarily "so radically different," but they are not the same. My point is that Derrick Jensen is not trying to "reinforce the philosophies given to us by Quinn, only in a different way." They each have their own philosophies, their own vision of a life outside of 'the culture of maximum harm'. And as I said, I think it performs both authors disservice to try and lump them together, or to paint them as two players on the same team. Diversity is what works. Steve |
| YONOSOYMEDlCO Sat Jul 5th, 2003 at 01:28 PM |
Steve I can sort of see where youre coming from, but I think you view quinn and jensen as being too different.... in the world of Takers that we live in...anyone who 'understands' it all, should be thrown into the same catagory as far as I'm concerned.. I dont give a damn if their goals are personal, religious, or even economic.... as long as they're talking about takin down Takers, I'm with them... and I wanted to add a quote by jenson to show you that his idea of how to change things, is also a 'vision change'... the EXACT same thing Quinn suggests...but it seems to me that Jensen ACTUALLY shows us what that new vision might look like... (this new vision comes about by listening by the way) "The best I can offer is the suggestion that if we are to survive, we must not only begin to learn the difference betsween real and false hopes, but we must also remember how to surender. No, not to the destructive forces guiding our culture toward its own collapse, nor even to the despair caused by seeing the murder of so many peoples and so many species and biomes, so much beauty, but instead we must remember how to surrender to the land itself, to immerse ourselves in the implications of the natural and social circumstances in which we find ourselves engulfed. If we do not allow ourselves to attend to our surroundings and what is happening to them, to feel the implications deep in our bones, how can we respond appropriately and deeply to the situation? What are the dying salmon telling you, and the dying forests? What lessons are whispered to you by the ghosts of the passenger pigeons, or teh ghostly roll of thunder of a mammoth herd of bison? Allow these boices to inform your actions. None of this is to say we shouldn't work to revoke corporate charters, revest corporate-claimed lands, file timber sale appeals, vote, write, work at battered-women's chelters, throw pies, blow up dams, or even write letters to Slade Gorton and Larry Craig. All of those actions are necessary to the degree that they arise organically from the situation. If we listen carefully enough I believe our bodies, the land, and circumstance will tell us what to do. If someone were to ask me what to do about the problems we face in the world today, I would say, "Listen. If you listen carefully enough you will in time know exactly what to do."(Jensen, pg 372 ALOTW) now if that ain't pro vision change, I dont know what is...Jensen seems to speak of a literal vision change, I know quinn does too, but Jensen shows you what it is. and I'm on the same exact page as jensen and quinn... Now Jensen tells us to listen, and it seems that the conclusions that Quinn came to he came to because of listening.. he listened to what the leaver cultures told us by their actions, how to live sustainable as a tribe... he listened to the animals to see the eratic retaliator, he listened and he has heard that civilization is detached and apart from everything else(mentally and in its actions) but the truth is that we ARE a part of everything else and that's the fault... believing youre away from nature is silly and I think Jensen and Quinn both are definitely on the same page....if someone is to expect two people, two anythings to be exactly the same. then that's silly.. of course Jensen and Quinn are going to say things different, and have their own thoughts experiences and reasons for writing...but that doesnt mean they say different things.. I actually believe everyone that reads quinn should be Jensen immediately thereafter..... and I hope to find many other authors who I cannot keep out of this same catagory... Sorry if I sounded harsh, but I just wanted to voice my opinion, and I'm not really sure if that quote was the best for the occassion but I think it got the point across.... they're both about vision change, Quinns just puts it better than Jensen in actually saying.. it will only be changed by 'new minds'... Here's another quote from jensen that actually says "we have to root out the mindset" "If we are to survive, we need to discern the difference between real and false hopes. We must eliminate false hopes, which blind us to real possibilities, and bind us to unlivable situations. Does anyone really believe that Weyerhaeuser or other timber transnationals will stop destroying forests? Does anyone really believe that the same corporate administrators who say they "wish salmon would go extinct so we could just go on living" will act other than to fulfill their stated desires? Does anyone really believe that a pattern of exploitation old as our civilization can be halted legislatively, judicially, or through any means other than an absolute rejection of the mindset that engineers the exploitation in the first place, followed by actions based on that rejection? This means if we want to stop the destruction, we have to roo out the mindest." thanks adam |
| Steve Sun Jul 6th, 2003 at 03:33 AM |
"YONOSOYMEDlCO" wrote: Steve I can sort of see where youre coming from, but I think you view quinn and jensen as being too different.... Maybe I'm just viewing them differently? "YONOSOYMEDlCO" wrote: and I wanted to add a quote by jenson to show you that his idea of how to change things, is also a 'vision change'... the EXACT same thing Quinn suggests...but it seems to me that Jensen ACTUALLY shows us what that new vision might look like... (this new vision comes about by listening by the way) This is the type of thing I mean.... You don't think Quinn's books illustrate a new vision? What are his books doing if not showing people what a new vision might look like??? "YONOSOYMEDlCO" wrote: Now Jensen tells us to listen, and it seems that the conclusions that Quinn came to he came to because of listening.. he listened to what the leaver cultures told us by their actions, how to live sustainable as a tribe... he listened to the animals to see the eratic retaliator, he listened and he has heard that civilization is detached and apart from everything else(mentally and in its actions) but the truth is that we ARE a part of everything else and that's the fault... believing youre away from nature is silly and I think Jensen and Quinn both are definitely on the same page.... Yes! I think Jensen's "language older than words" is precisely what Quinn is talking about when he speaks of knowledge written in the universe. ... 'The web woven endlessly'... Of course! "YONOSOYMEDlCO" wrote: ...if someone is to expect two people, two anythings to be exactly the same. then that's silly.. of course Jensen and Quinn are going to say things different, and have their own thoughts experiences and reasons for writing...but that doesnt mean they say different things... I actually believe everyone that reads quinn should be Jensen immediately thereafter..... and I hope to find many other authors who I cannot keep out of this same catagory... They DO say different things. Their differences compliment eachother-- Which is why I'll also recommend Jensen's books to people who have read Quinn. This quote from Jensen's "Listening to the Land", from Robert J. Lifton, I think touches upon the way studying both Quinn and Jensen has helped me keep my balance ( and reflects some of the difference I see in their work)- " ...If one only stresses the genocide and its inevitability, one is contributing to the massive destruction or the apocalyptic end result. If one probes the dimensions of hope, one is contributing to an alternative possibility. There is another way to look at this. If one does not look into the abyss, one is being wishful by simply not confronting the truth about our time. One is not (to use Martin Buber's term), imagining the real. On the other hand, it is imperative that one not get stuck in the abyss. With the knowledge from the abyss, one looks toward alternatives, toward the transformation that we desperately require." Now, I'm not going to put Quinn or Jensen into some kind of apocalyptic/'hopeful alternatives' equation, but does this make any sense? "YONOSOYMEDlCO" wrote: Sorry if I sounded harsh, but I just wanted to voice my opinion, and I'm not really sure if that quote was the best for the occassion but I think it got the point across.... they're both about vision change, Quinns just puts it better than Jensen in actually saying.. it will only be changed by 'new minds'... Harsh?... Are you the same person who wrote the review for "Original Wisdom" that refers to Ishmael as having 'more of a negative message'? :lol: (I'll have to check that book out...) "YONOSOYMEDlCO" wrote: "If we are to survive, we need to discern the difference between real and false hopes. We must eliminate false hopes, which blind us to real possibilities, and bind us to unlivable situations. Does anyone really believe that Weyerhaeuser or other timber transnationals will stop destroying forests? Does anyone really believe that the same corporate administrators who say they "wish salmon would go extinct so we could just go on living" will act other than to fulfill their stated desires? Does anyone really believe that a pattern of exploitation old as our civilization can be halted legislatively, judicially, or through any means other than an absolute rejection of the mindset that engineers the exploitation in the first place, followed by actions based on that rejection? This means if we want to stop the destruction, we have to roo out the mindest." I think it's all a big waste of time trying to 'change minds'... What we *really* need to do is 'decolonize minds'! :wink: Thanks for your response, Steve |
| YONOSOYMEDlCO Sun Jul 6th, 2003 at 10:40 AM |
I'm with ya steve.. And no I didnt write that review for 'original wisdom' although I really want to read that book... you know what sucks? the ONLY books that I have been recommended from this site that my library has is Quinn's books...and all the ones I've read at that.. they dont even have providence; a fifty year vision quest, the man who grew young, or the holy. So I guess I'll have to buy all of those.. anyways.. decolonizing sounds good... I wish all of the pilgrims had been as smart as those on Roanoke Island and instead.. taken up the Indian way of life.... It's kind of like we're the new pilgrims... adam |
| ledbetter Mon Jul 7th, 2003 at 10:19 AM |
Good stuff guys. Steve, I wrote the Original Wisdom review. Taken alone, Ishmael leaves me thinking, "oh shit, what do we do now!?" So I view Ishmael as a book that shows you what is wrong with our story, whereas Original Wisdom is a book that shows what is right about their story. In hindsight, comparing the two was a mistake. Everyone should read them both, Ishmael then OW. I have not yet read anything by Derrick Jensen. I have two of his no my reading list and I plan to catch the newest one when it comes out. Any suggestions on what order to tackle them in? Daniel |
| YONOSOYMEDlCO Mon Jul 7th, 2003 at 10:45 AM |
i've only read a language older than words... im going to check 'listening to the land' out today..and then i plan to go onto a culture of makebelieve.... whats his new one entitled? adam |
| Heretic Mon Jul 7th, 2003 at 01:02 PM |
Well, I think reading Language Older than Words first is best. It sets up his writing style and his views very well. Then I tackled Culture of Make Believe. From what I understand, Listening to the Land is a collection of interviews. I've heard it's good, but just not straight Jensen. Hey Huby7, did you ever get the CD? Was it any good? |
| Leaverish Mon Jul 7th, 2003 at 02:23 PM |
Hey guys! Daniel, I totally agree. Ishmael and OW complement each other, and IMHO, Leidloff's `The Continuum Concept` is the third side of this triangle of necessary books. I haven't read any of Jensen's yet, but my library finally notified me today that both of his books I ordered arrived (ALOTW, and TCOMB), and I'm gonna picke'm up later. BTW Adam, I'm fairly sure you can go to the librarian in your local library and order whatever books they don't have. As long as any other library in the US has it, they'll get it for you, all you have to pay is the postage for the library to notify you the book arrived! That at least is how it works here. The Jensen books I'm getting took a few weeks and are coming from out of state... |
| Huby7 Tue Jul 8th, 2003 at 04:44 PM |
Great discussion! Yes I did get Jensen's double CD: Stand Up Tragedy. I think it has a lot of useful information on it and it is well worth the ten dollars that he charges. The only thing is that the sound quality isn't that good on them. But if you listen to it on a walkman or in a quiet room you should have no problem hearing what Jensen and his audience has to say. Take Care Curt |
| Huby7 Tue Jul 8th, 2003 at 05:05 PM |
YONO, YOu wrote: "whats his new one entitled?" It's called Strangely Like War: The Global Assault on Forests. It is being published by Chelsea Green publishing. If you any of you want to read some of Jensens interviews and essays you can read them here...http://www.derrickjensen.org/essay.html. There is a lot of useful information there for anyone interested. Take Care Curt |
| YONOSOYMEDlCO Wed Jul 9th, 2003 at 02:14 PM |
Thanks Huby... and Red... I did end up checking "Listening to the Land" out and I'm a little past page 100..its REALLY great...it gives me hope that more people think like us... cause before I only had access to DQ, Derrick Jensen(as of late) and the people here at Ishcon, along with a few friends of mine.. but this has great interviews with everyone from the founders of EARTHFIRST!, to open minded christians, and Indians..its good It's hard to agree with EVERYTHING EVERYone says..but pretty much theyre all on the same page... And actually some stuff I'm learning about technology, and specifically NAFTA, GATT and the world trade organization is REALLY REALLY scary... I hope change comes soon...either by choice or force(catastrophe), but we need something new, desperately adam |
| Steve Thu Jul 17th, 2003 at 06:32 PM |
I've been thinking more about Quinn's work and Jensen's work (I see them compared frequently in various discussions). One thing that's occurred to me is that Quinn identifies himself as an artist- Jensen identifies himself as an activist. -----snip----- ----paste----- Hold that thought- - Started a new thread in the Chit Chat section- "My favorite artist..." Steve |
| Huby7 Thu Jul 17th, 2003 at 07:04 PM |
About a month ago, in the news on Ishcon.org there was an essay contest with the title: Do we need nature? I was just browsing through Jensen's website and found that he had written a essay for The Ecologist about this contest, and the questions put forth by the people putting on the contest. It's a great response by Jensen. You can read it here......http://www.derrickjensen.org/econ.html Take Care Curt |
| Leaverish Fri Jul 18th, 2003 at 01:35 AM |
Guys, just as an aside, when you post an url, it can make things easier for readers if you use the tags and put the web address between them. If you do this, it will create a link in your text, and people won't have to cut & paste. |
| MitchellTrupia Fri Jul 18th, 2003 at 05:53 AM |
Quote: Jensen is focused on one thing- Civilization needs to be stopped (By any means necessary...). He is currently working on a book about how to take down civilization. His mind is made up-- There's no hope of going beyond civilization. The best thing to do is take civilization down immediately to prevent it from causing any more damage...' This is antithetical to Quinn's idea of finding a new vision or 'another story to be in'. Anybody else see this? Steve I am not sure I agree but I get your point. To me the new story to be in is Beyond Civilization. It's like going from the horse to the car. Taking down this Taker civilization is how you do it. The Horse is not a Car. Something totally different. Beyond not forward. Tribal "businesses" could be in that new story, possibly. We do need a whole new model. This one is not sustainable at all. We will not be here much longer without the drastic change. I think DQ said 200 years. I think 25 years max. if we go like this. :? -mt |
| Steve Fri Jul 18th, 2003 at 01:16 PM |
"MitchellTrupia" wrote: Taking down this Taker civilization is how you do it. The Horse is not a Car. Something totally different. Beyond not forward. Tribal "businesses" could be in that new story, possibly. We do need a whole new model. This one is not sustainable at all. We will not be here much longer without the drastic change. I think DQ said 200 years. I think 25 years max. if we go like this. :? -mt Maybe it's like anything else--- for some to live, others must die. -- In order to build a new model, others must be taken down... ? Steve |
| YONOSOYMEDlCO Fri Jul 18th, 2003 at 02:31 PM |
even if taking down civilization directly isn't something that Quinn talks about... can anyone here honestly say they wouldnt support it? or also want civilization taken down? civlization=takers.... it seems to me that any other option is just "the same old thing with new leaders or new ways of doing it" not an entirely new thing... although I love Quinn very much, it seems like jensens works are more on a real time/place scale...Quinn teaches in metaphors and stories so that peoples can see the answers for themselves.... Jensen doesnt ignore the deforestation...sure protesting won't do much, and jensen knows that....but acting(possibly where 'activist' comes from)against civilization(the positive-loop mechanism working toward catastrophe) seems to be one of the only ways of doing it... also, we have talked about how to take it down would be to create a new system that renders the old one obsolete... but either way... we're all in the same boat... adam |
| Ron Fri Jul 18th, 2003 at 06:14 PM |
Hi Adam, You wrote: “even if taking down civilization directly isn't something that Quinn talks about... can anyone here honestly say they wouldnt support it? or also want civilization taken down?” Well, depending on how you define “civilization”, and what you think will replace it, I can honestly say I probably wouldn’t support it. In Jensen’s essay from The Ecologist magazine (thanks for the link Curt!), he writes: “A reasonable definition of insanity is to have lost one’s connections to physical reality, to consider one’s delusions as being more real than the real world. This is then an insane question, because it does not take physical reality…as a given, but places it secondary to their mental constructs…” One can look at your question in a similar way. (I’m not calling you insane. LOL! Jensen’s style is combative, but he makes a useful point). The assumption is that, without civilization, everything would be improved. But this ignores the realities of six billion people needing food, water, shelter and culture, the complete mess of interdependence we’ve gotten ourselves into, and all those nuclear and conventional weapons lying around. This is partly what I’m going on about in the vegetarianism thread. The idea that boycotting meat is helping to end animal suffering is a nice idea, but it completely ignores the physical reality of how the money flows and the industry works. It is considering “one’s delusions as being more real than the real world.” Likewise, the idea that ending civilization will ensure ecological balance and human happiness is a nice idea. But I don’t see how it squares with the actual mess we’re in. Currently, even the most mundane of our everyday objects is made of parts from many different countries. Food is imported and exported everywhere. Even water is shipped around (the Northwest has been shipping water to California for a LOOOONG time now). Ending civilization stops the flow of EVERYTHING. We’ve said in other threads that 6 billion people can’t live as hunter-gatherers. The six billion were “created” by civilization and can only be sustained by it, for the foreseeable future. The idea of “taking down civilization” is a self-limiting idea. Large numbers of people probably will not participate in a course of action that could undermine the very infrastructure they depend on for survival. That would obviously lead to gross human suffering and massive military engagement. You wrote: “I hope change comes soon...either by choice or force(catastrophe), but we need something new, desperately.” These are the words of someone who has very little to lose. How is one catastrophe better than another? If we end “civilization” then the six billion will kill all of the last remaining mammals, birds, amphibians, fish and insects in the world just to stay alive a little longer. Is that not ecological collapse too? Whether we kill them all by taking away their habitat or kill them all to eat them, the result is the same, yes? I will not sacrifice the lives of my son or wife to some ideal of “ending civilization”. I would rather the catastrophe come of it’s own accord than to cause it artificially. The longer time we have to figure it out, the better. Of course another question is: If we manage to end the practice of unlimited growth and make our technology and agriculture sustainable, then do we still call our way of life “civilization”? Readers of Quinn might not want to, but it sure won’t be “tribal” in any traditional sense. So, I imagine we’ll still think of it as civilization. But, whether we call it moving “beyond” civilization, or “repairing civilization” doesn’t matter too much to me. Incremental, intelligent change is our only hopeful option; that’s what changing minds is FOR. As Daniel has said, we are taking the first steps. Our children will take more, and hopefully their children will finish the job. So, the notion of “one’s delusions being more real than the real world” cuts both ways. WE have to watch out for it as much as anyone. I don’t just want to “end civilization”. I want a world that has a chance to CONTINUE with the human species as a PART of it, along with as many OTHER SPECIES as it can hold. That’s the goal and the aspiration. Whatever gets in the way of that, whether it’s from an oil company, the Catholic Church or GreenPeace, must be tossed out to make room for anything that changed minds can come up with. That’s my opinion. What’s yours? With respect, Ron |
| YONOSOYMEDlCO Mon Jul 21st, 2003 at 09:33 AM |
im on a short break here at work, so i could only read the first half of your post.. but I agree... what I mean by taking civilization down, is 'civilization as we know it'..... something new has to come along and 'heal' things even if it calls for a time of shittiness... I honestly dont think the people of civilization are acting 'civilized' anymore... in my mind (almost) all indigenous peoples were/are more intelligent and civilized than we now are.... which reminds me of something i read in 'listening to the land' by derrick jensen.. I cant remember the exact interviewee but I believe it was one of the last ones, possibly the okanawon indian woman who spoke of e'nowkin.....mmm good stuff lateron adam |
| Huby7 Tue Jul 22nd, 2003 at 05:21 PM |
Hey Guys, I just visited Chelsea Green Publishing website and found that Jensen's new book Strangely Like War: The Global Assault On Forests will be released on September 1'st. He actually co-wrote it with George Draffan. I think they also wrote Railroads And Clearcuts together. If any of you would like to buy it, or check out what the book is about you can find it here.....http://www.chelseagreen.com/item_detail.asp?id=589 Take Care Curt |
| shogun Mon Jul 28th, 2003 at 12:34 AM |
I just wanted to thank you all for bringing my attention to Derrick Jensen. I have been an avid Quinn fan since I read Ishmael about two years ago. I read this post and decided to buy LOTW last night. Needless to say I devoured it. I set a new record for myself in that I've never read 400 pages in a day. I don't attend college, so I've never been forced to. I found the study of primary perception by Cleve Backster to be intriguing. I also love the way Jensen wove all the other elements of his story together into a beautiful and at times ugly quilt. I found it amusing that when I went to the Yale bookstore the book was nowhere to be found in the biography section where they had it catalogued. The clerk and I checked memoirs, and finally nature. None. She asked if I had scanned the tables( they have tables covered with books chosen for things like "summer reading" and other such categories). This book was on the last table we checked, plainly marked "words." The funny thought occurred to me that if a book containing "words" was the only prerequisite for this table why all the books in the store weren't on it. I also noticed that once I saw the cover, it transported me back to many times I had passed by it and noted the imagery. For some reason that cover stuck out when I had passed by it. So in essence, when I was not searching for it, it popped into my attention a few times. Ironically when I came looking for it specifically, it was more elusive. The book toyed with me, almost testing me to see how bad I wanted it. Or maybe it was a little sore with me for not picking it up the first time. Again, thanks for the recommendation, I wouldn't have found it without you guys, or the girl at the Yale bookstore. (can't leave her out) :D |
| YONOSOYMEDlCO Mon Jul 28th, 2003 at 07:53 AM |
YE-AH his other books are great too...devour them.. hehe...=) adam |
| Leaverish Mon Jul 28th, 2003 at 12:01 PM |
Hey shogun, as I'm the unofficial greater around here, welcome to Ishcon!! And as the unofficial `pusher` of the `community` thread, I'd like to encourage you to check it out - you can find it in the chit chat forum. If youliked ALOTW, you have to get `The Culture of Make Believe`, also by DJ. IMO, ALOTW is a prelude to the real thing - TCOMB. Extremely powerful, very long, and quite a ride... Interesting how the book `called` you, before you actually heared about it. I had the same experience with Ishmael. I've never heared about it, or about DQ. The book called me, grabbed my attention, and I headed the call. The rest is history... |
| shogun Mon Jul 28th, 2003 at 03:43 PM |
I will be visiting the community thread very soon. The only thing I have to do first is head back down to Barnes&Noble to buy TCOMB. You said the key word, longer. When I picked up ALOTW, I was very excited just by the weight of the book. Little did I know I would finish it in a day. I always wished, when I read Quinn's books, that they kept going. Maybe it's because when I'm reading them, everything seems so clear. Once I finish the book, I resume the duty of narrator in my head. Quinn and Jensen have such concise and simple way of pointing out what I've always been trying to say. Even after reading their books, I still have some trouble articulating to people the ideas, mainly because I'm too passionate. My emotions get in the way. Before the readings, I always was pointing out flaws in the system. I was labeled a pessimist or a doomsayer. After the readings I can do that and also explain why, which makes my story much more convincing. Of course the question of how still remains for myself and anyone I talk to, whether skeptical or not. Thanx for the welcome Leaverish and YONOSOYMEDICO. |
| YONOSOYMEDlCO Mon Jul 28th, 2003 at 03:53 PM |
Shogun, youre welcome.. and actually you sound a LOT like me, especially youre discriptions before reading their books, and afterwards, and how you relate to other people...it's hard for me to articulate my thoughts a lot of the time, which is a shame cause i feel like i could change peoples minds.... whoa..just a thought i had... you all know how in christianity they focus on 'converting people'.... maybe 'changing minds' is what that is ACTUALLY all about.. and what we are doing is what jesus was actually speaking about..... whoa...just whoa adam oh yeah, we're glad to have you shogun, add as much as you can |
| shogun Mon Jul 28th, 2003 at 04:28 PM |
Damn, B&N didn't have it. My search continues.... I agree with you NOSOY, so long as we don't use the same methods that the Christians used i.e. swords and such. I'm sure you know that, the clarification was more for someone else who would be reading this. What would be even more twisted would be if they started crucifying authors like Quinn & Jensen, and then later started religions named after them, but in direct opposition of their teachings. :roll: |
| ledbetter Mon Jul 28th, 2003 at 05:00 PM |
Sorry, I missed my chance to post earlier so let me throw the topic back up the thread a bit.... I definitely would not support efforts to "bring down" civilization. Efforts to oppose something, in my opinion, are only met with resistance. Most of us here don't support command control laws either. The general thinking is that banning an action does nothing to stop it. So toppling civilization at best buys some time. I don't think we are at that point yet where it is necessary to start focusing on terrorizing other humans to have our way. I think the focus should remain on talking, on changing minds. Actions that spring from that are generally going to be constructive rather than destructive. In my worldview, destroying this civilization would mean remaining in this story. If we are looking for a new story to be in, I don't particularly want it to include the culture of maximum harm even as a character.... Just my feelings, since no one could possibly be "right" or "wrong" on such a topic.... Daniel |
| YONOSOYMEDlCO Tue Jul 29th, 2003 at 11:44 AM |
Whoa I just read Daniels post and I want to clarify something... by 'taking down civilization' I mean exactly what you said,, primarily changing minds, and changing the way we live individually. and eventually that WILL take civilization down, or at least make it obvious that it's not the right way, or even the ONLY way... huhm...i wasn't really thinking fight clubesque type actions...that's all adam |
| Huby7 Tue Jul 29th, 2003 at 05:38 PM |
Shogun, If your Barnes and Nobel didn't have THE CULTURE OF MAKE BELIEVE you might want to order a autographed copy of TCOMB for $21.95 at Derrick Jensen's website. It may even be cheaper than you can get it at Barnes and Noble. I've been ordering from him for about a year now. Actually, I just ordered A LANGUAGE OLDER THAN WORDS to donate to my library last month, it only took two weeks to get here. You can order here......http://www.derrickjensen.org/purchase.html Take Care Curt |
| shogun Tue Jul 29th, 2003 at 05:57 PM |
Thanx Curt, That's good to know. I already ordered TCOMB from B&N online, but I will definitely order the next one from his site. -Shog |
| ledbetter Wed Jul 30th, 2003 at 09:24 AM |
Oh, I see. My bad, I was thinking we were talking about violence and other extreme measures to destroy civilization. Thanks for the clarification, Adam! :) daniel |
| YONOSOYMEDlCO Wed Jul 30th, 2003 at 02:08 PM |
Hehe yeah man, no problem...blowing up credit-card buildings. =)... ordering directly from authors sounds like a great idea...especially when talking about taking down 'corporations'... adam |
| shogun Wed Jul 30th, 2003 at 05:05 PM |
Yeah, I kinda feel guilty now :oops: , seeing as it was my taker impatience that made me order it online. Hehehehe. Shog |
| Heretic Thu Aug 7th, 2003 at 04:38 PM |
Derrick Jensen has the first five pages of his new book, Strangely Like War: The Global Assault on Forests, up at his website. You can check it out here. |
| YONOSOYMEDlCO Fri Aug 8th, 2003 at 04:21 PM |
"When you've finished crying, and if you want to know more about the current crisis in the forests--where we are, how we got here, and where we're going--then come back and read the rest of this book." yeah, that's pretty funny but yeah.. |
| Huby7 Sat Sep 6th, 2003 at 11:12 AM |
I just got done browsing Derrick Jensen's homepage and see that he added a recommended reading list (much like DQ's) of books that have influenced his thinking and work. All the books he has listed and reviewed look very interesting. You can find Jensen's list here....... http://www.derrickjensen.org/comm.html Take Care Curt |
| YONOSOYMEDlCO Sun Sep 7th, 2003 at 01:39 PM |
i find it odd that he only put 'the holy' and 'after dachau' on there...im almost done with AD, and haven't read the holy yet...but i would definitely put ishmael and story of b on there........ muy interesante, adam |
| Heretic Fri Sep 12th, 2003 at 01:42 AM |
I picked up Erich Fromm's Anatomy of Human Destructiveness after reading one of Jensen's books. I haven't gotten to it yet (I'm chewin' my way through Gun, Germs, and Steel right now), but I'll let everyone know how it is when I get to it. 8) |
| Huby7 Wed Sep 24th, 2003 at 06:53 PM |
Derrick Jensen's new book, Strangely Like War: The Global Assault On Forests is now available. You can purchase a autographed copy at Derrick's website. www.derrickjensen.org Take Care, Curt |
| Xavin Wed Sep 24th, 2003 at 11:04 PM |
Curt, I think that should be on the front page. It sounds like good news to me. |
| amphora Fri Sep 26th, 2003 at 06:25 PM |
Hello everybody, I've just started a website with a group of like minded individuals in my community. We have some of Jensen's wrk on the site, and I'm wiating to hear back form him about putting somemore interviews on the site. Quinn ismuch tougher to get in contact with on the other hand, but we are working on it. Noam Chomsky has also been very helpful and we should have some of his stuff soon. What we are looking for is more ocntributions, whether ir be art or stories, anything really, that we can add to the site. Check it out, http://creative-resistance.com and there is alink to contact us on the website. Even small comments or suggestions are greatly encourages ads we would like to get enought hat we can poist those on the iste for the people who just have something small to say. Thanks everybody |
| Huby7 Fri Sep 26th, 2003 at 08:42 PM |
Xavin, Yes, it is good news. Wouldn't it be great to see Derrick Jensen on the front page of TIME magazine......:-) Probably not in this lifetime, but ya never know. Take Care Curt |
| amphora Tue Sep 30th, 2003 at 03:05 PM |
hello everybody i recently started a website http://www.creative-resistance.com we are looking for more art and writings from people who share the views of quinn and jensen. My website has links to derrick's site as well as daniel's and some others that im sure you'de find interesting. The book list has some from both authors as well. I noticed that there were postings about some of drrick's interviews and what not... on the site i have gotten permission from him to post a couple of these, they are all very worthwhile. There is also a video of one of his talks if anybody is interested they can contatc me through the website. i would really like ot knwo what everybody thinks and suggestionson how to improve it... the more people we can reach- the more minds we can change.... thanks everybody |
| Huby7 Tue Dec 9th, 2003 at 04:48 PM |
Hello all, I just noticed that Derrick Jensen's new triple CD titled, The Other Side of Darkness, is out. He said that he will start shipping them starting the third week of December. You can buy it at www.derrickjensen.org Curt |
| Heretic Tue Dec 9th, 2003 at 04:58 PM |
Sw33t!! Thanks Curt. I'm going to order both of his CD's later this week. 8) |
| Huby7 Tue Dec 9th, 2003 at 05:23 PM |
Heretic, I think Derrick has a option that if you order both CD's, Stand Up Tragedy and The Other Side Of Darkness, he will give you a deal. Check er out.....:-) Take Care Curt |
| Heretic Tue Dec 9th, 2003 at 07:16 PM |
I have been meaning to order Stand Up Tragedy for while now, but haven't gotten around to it. I saw that deal and immediately put in the order. :D I'm really lookin' forward to listening to both of them. Thanks again! |
| JCamasto Wed Dec 10th, 2003 at 12:39 PM |
The info has been forwarded to those few peple in my life that might like to give me a good gift ... -Jim |
| Huby7 Thu Jan 15th, 2004 at 04:14 PM |
Yesterday I recieved the much awaited Jensen triple Cd...The Other Side Of Darkness. I listened to it last night. I thought iti was serious, like the rest of Jensen's work, but funny! Jensen has a way of pointing the destructiveness of this culture in a funny kind of way. Has anybody else listened to The Other Side Of Darkness? How did the CD's leave you feeling? Curt |
| Heretic Fri Jan 16th, 2004 at 09:23 AM |
I haven't recieved mine yet, but I should be getting it soon. I'll let you know what I think as soon as I do. 8) |
| Huby7 Tue Jan 27th, 2004 at 04:53 PM |
Derrick Jensen is now shipping his new book, WALKING ON WATER. You can order autographed hardcovers from his website for $22.50. This is what fellow Ishconer Mike said about it... Quote: Look out for his upcoming book Walking on Water. It's going to be a favorite, I think, for Daniel Quinn fans, people interested in education, and especially writers. It's definitely the funniest book Derrick has written but that doesn't make it any less serious or important. www.derrickjensen.org Take Care Curt |
| Huby7 Sun May 2nd, 2004 at 07:07 PM |
Hello, For those of you interested I just noticed that Derrick Jensen has posted some new published essays on his website. I think it has been almost six months since he has posted some essays. You can check them out here...http://www.derrickjensen.org/essay.html Curt |
| JCamasto Mon May 24th, 2004 at 07:08 PM |
Just finished DJ's Walking on Water: Reading, Writing, and Revolution, as the library final got a hold of a copy I ordered. It's a book that you can, and will, devour in one sitting. Of the many topics discussed, Jensen asks: "If you just recieved $3 million, would you stay in school? Would you work?" Of course not. Except for one of your classes, I added to myself... -Jim |
| arkface Mon May 24th, 2004 at 08:12 PM |
new list. http://lists2.resist.ca/wws/info/derrickjensen_discussion |
| Huby7 Mon May 24th, 2004 at 09:07 PM |
Scott, Thank you for announcing that there is another Derrick Jensen discussion group. Jim, You wrote: [/i]Of the many topics discussed, Jensen asks: "If you just recieved $3 million, would you stay in school? Would you work?" Neither, but I would have enough money to go to Ishcon! |
| Huby7 Sun Aug 8th, 2004 at 07:02 PM |
Hey all, I would just like to announce that Derrick Jensen has started shipping his newest book Welcome to the Machine: : Science, Surveillance, and the Culture of Control. You can buy autographed copies at his website for $18.00. www.derrickjensen.org I also would like to add that I've been having some success getting Casey Maddox's novel The Day Philosophy Dies into bookstores through out Wisconsin, Minnesota and Michigan. Casey was a former student of Derricks at Pelican Bay State Prison. I wrote a blog entry about why I started promoting Casey's book and how much success I've been having. As of right now I'm looking for bookstores to call. If anybody would like to give me there local bookstores name and phone number that would be great. You can just post the phone number and store name on my blog and I will give them a call. I'll call anywhere in the U.S. I will than post on my blog how much success I've been having with the suggestions. It's kind of a grassroots book promotion. My blog address is... http://anthropik.net/blog/18 Thank you, Curt |
| Huby7 Thu Sep 2nd, 2004 at 06:32 PM |
Hey all, For anybody interested, Derrick Jensen just started a reading club. He is offering club members access to the book he is now working on. The book is about how to take down civlization. I've read some of it, and so far it is the best book I've ever read. Here is the website to check it out...http://www.derrickjensen.org/readingclub.html Take Care, Curt Occupied Anishinaabe Land |
| Anachronist Tue Sep 7th, 2004 at 08:34 PM |
I just finished "A Language Older...". I found a lot of value in it, and many of you have already made reference to such. I can't help but be bothered, though, by his dismissal of the scientific method (and specifically of the work of Richard Dawkins, whom I have a great deal of respect for, and whose memetics concepts Daniel Quinn references as being useful.) Surely we're now aware of the many ecological and social problems created and/or exacerbated by our culture and its effects BECAUSE of the work of scientists? Certainly many awful things have been and are done in the name of science, but the discipline itself should not be maligned. I still find the scientific method to be superior to many other means for finding things out about the world (though certainly not for all things.) Also, Jensen comes from a wealthy background. This made it very easy for him to keep bees and sit around musing on what he wanted to do with himself. Not all of us have/had such luxury. Again, I found more good than bad in this particular book (the only one of his I've read so far), but these points did bother me. Anyone else want to comment? |
| arkface Wed Sep 8th, 2004 at 08:07 AM |
"Anachronist" wrote: Also, Jensen comes from a wealthy background. This made it very easy for him to keep bees and sit around musing on what he wanted to do with himself. Not all of us have/had such luxury. you prolly wouldnt wanna say that in front of derrick jensen (i've heard people say it before, and he gets offended by this). you sorta...well just ignored all the the process of is work. writing takes time and practice. and.. i think he called his dad a lawyer to cover up his idenity. i cant explain science stuff :oops: cuz im malnurished :twisted: and crazy. hahaha. just kidding. someone else will do it. |
| Anachronist Wed Sep 8th, 2004 at 11:02 AM |
It's not just the profession of his father; he talks about the land he or his family owned, and how his mother gave him money to pursue his projects. I have no doubt that he worked hard writing, but I think his lifestyle tended to insulate him from some other things that were going on. |
| etbnc Wed Sep 8th, 2004 at 01:48 PM |
I also found things that concern me along with things of value in Language Older than Words (and Jensen's other writing). I think I understand your concern about his portrayal of science. Let me suggest a somewhat different take on it, though. The defining experience of Derrick Jensen's life isn't wealth. It's abuse. That's the main undercurrent in Language, is it not? His father terribly abused Derrick and his family for so long that abuse has become the story the author knows best. In that story there are only two roles: victim and abuser. And there are only two actions within that story: submission or coercion. This victim language permeates much of his writing. Derrick seems to view the world through rape-colored glasses. He writes eloquently and movingly about the world he sees through those glasses. His writing is very effective at making that world sadly intimate and real. But with a limited selection of roles and actions, making sense of the world involves fitting people into the roles of victim and abuser, and categorizing events as coercion or submission. It's easy to see how science can be associated with many bad outcomes. As a result, from Jensen's perspective, it's easy to categorize science with abusers and coercion. Moreover, our casual descriptions of "science" allow us to view it as both an abusive character and as a tool of coercion for others who seem to play the abuser role. (Doubly bad for science.) Now that's all completely understandable for someone whose life experience is dominated by child abuse. It's understandably appealing to readers who also identify with the victim role. For readers who don't identify strongly with the role of victim, however, Jensen's writing may not be completely satisfying. I know I find that worldview very limiting, uncomfortably restrictive. The victim and abuse story doesn't explain the world to my satisfaction, and it doesn't offer satisfying options to act. I feel fortunate to imagine other stories to be in. |
| Huby7 Thu Sep 9th, 2004 at 02:17 PM |
Anachronist, You wrote: Quote: Also, Jensen comes from a wealthy background. This made it very easy for him to keep bees and sit around musing on what he wanted to do with himself. Not all of us have/had such luxury. From what I've gathered from Derrick's writing is that he is where he is in his thinking because he made the concious choices to get there through out his life. 1.He worked his tale off to get a scholarship to the Colorado School of Mines. 2. He quit a high paying job to become a commercial beekeeper, which doesn't pay much. He could be making over a $100,000 right now, but he is barely getting by writing. 3. He made the choice not to have a family. 4. He has made the choice to listen to the landbase, and this isn't metaphoric. 5. He has made the choice to live close to his mother for support. 6. He made the choice to teach in a Maximum Security Prison. I'm sure I've missed quite a few choices he has made, but I don't think Derrick is where he is because he had a life of luxury. Take Care, Curt Occupied Anishinaabe Land |
| tonyz Thu Sep 9th, 2004 at 03:02 PM |
I really like Jensen, but the most significant part of his book, to me, turns out to have almost no support anywhere else. I'm talking about the baxter effect. It seems so profound, and the case made is so interesting... well, could anyone point me to so other research of primary perception? I'm really interested in the secret life of plants, but I am a little let down to find almost nothing about it on the interenet -- well, nothing the felt as credible as reading it in Jensen's book... Love, ~TonyZ |
| arkface Thu Sep 9th, 2004 at 05:27 PM |
"tonyz" wrote: I really like Jensen, but the most significant part of his book, to me, turns out to have almost no support anywhere else. I'm talking about the baxter effect. It seems so profound, and the case made is so interesting... well, could anyone point me to so other research of primary perception? I'm really interested in the secret life of plants, but I am a little let down to find almost nothing about it on the interenet -- well, nothing the felt as credible as reading it in Jensen's book... Love, ~TonyZ have you read cleve backster's book? i hear it's pretty rawking. http://www.primaryperception.com/book.html |
| phusion Thu Sep 9th, 2004 at 10:10 PM |
I have just purchased my copy of The Day Philosophy Dies by Casey Maddox. The echeck is cleared and I'm just waiting for it to get to my house...:) Kind of bad though because it will probably take priority over all the school reading I have to do within the next few weeks :twisted: Thanks, Scott |
| Huby7 Thu Sep 9th, 2004 at 11:03 PM |
Scott, The Day Philosphy Dies is one of the ten best books I've ever read. It'll blow your mind. Take Care, Curt Occupied Anishinaabe Land |
| Heretic Fri Sep 10th, 2004 at 06:38 AM |
"arkface" wrote: have you read cleve backster's book? i hear it's pretty rawking. He's got a book? 8O Holy crap! How did I miss that? That was the part of Jensen's book that really stuck with me, too. I'm definitely gonna have to pick that up. Still haven't gotten The Day Philosophy Dies or any of Jensen's newer books. I'm definitely slacking. So many books, so little time... |
| dust35 Fri Sep 10th, 2004 at 01:58 PM |
Hello, all! It's been a long time since I've posted here. My life story since my last post will likely come out in short order, but that's not why I'm replying here. The work of Jensen's that I've read is The Culture of Make Believe, and after having read it, I experienced the same kind of, er, "hopeful hopelessness" for lack of a better phrase. I do think, given the momentum and power of the Taker juggernaut, that this is an exercise in futility, that it cannot be stopped with 6 billion +/- people fueling the machine, I also believe that fighting this losing fight is the only one worth fighting. So I feel hopeless about a victory, and I feel positive about the choices I'm making and the things I'm doing. I'm positively hopeless, something that I've heard from more than one girlfriend in my life, only now that has become a good thing. Why do I feel that this is a losing battle? Watching the hundreds of millions of people in planes, trains, and automobiles every day going to a "job" and working on their "career", willfully though unconsciously being wage slaves and giving up true security for ephemeral pleasure and distraction. Volunteering to lead lives of misery and quiet desperation. Listening, as most of us once did, unerringly to Mother Culture with no idea that her message is now dangerous, much less questionable. Television, the "great homogenizer", further force feeds the message to 2 year old Billy and 92 year old Gladys. Very few people, even with the wherewithal to pay attention to the (wo)man behind the curtain, have the time and resources to devote to effectively trying to change the system. jug·ger·naut, n. 1. Something, such as a belief or institution, that elicits blind and destructive devotion or to which people are ruthlessly sacrificed. 2. An overwhelming, advancing force that crushes or seems to crush everything in its path Those hundreds of millions of people, perhaps billions, slave and slavemaster alike, all actively push the Taker Juggernaut forward every day. I was a reclusive and uninterested 16 years old when the Union Carbide disaster occurred in Bhopal, and so I didn't take much notice of it on the news at the time. Jensen's account and summary of it in TCOMB made it all the more alarming and disturbing simply because a disaster of that magnitude, brought about by negligence, selfishness, basic disrespect, and objectification is not talked about frequently and significant changes have not been made because of it. Few people really learned anything from this tragedy. After Hiroshima, Nagasaki, and the wholesale genocidal practices of the Nazis during WWII, Bhopal is a drop in the bucket as far as suffering and death are concerned, and yet it is terrifying in its own accord. And in all these cases and countless others the gods cried out loud and clear for the entire planet to hear, they cried out saying definitively that we are headed on a path to our own destruction, they cried out telling us that we are the cause of all our suffering ... and what percent of the world population heard and did something about it? The Taker Juggernaut has been there for all our wars, for all our crime and suffering, for all our misery, for all our insecurity ... and what has been able to resist it? One very valuable idea that I got out of Conversations With God was that the deity speaks in experience, while we are so occupied with what is said in words only. If 480,000 people die this year as a result of smoking cigarettes, it will be reported as, say, a 6% increase over the previous year, and no-one bats an eye. No tragedy there, because of the words. And 3,000+ people die in a terrorist attack, and a major world power shuts down for a week while all the news channels cover it 24 hours a day. Big tragedy there, because of the words. The gods cry out to us in experience every day, and who listens? Why is the written and spoken word orders of magnitude more important than everything else the gods use to communicate with us? And even with the words of people like Quinn, Rand, and Jensen, and the whole and complete meaning of the words of Jesus, Buddha, and Mohammed, not enough people are listening. More may be listening every day, but if sufficiently more people are listening every day, then where is the attendant change? So if people aren't yet responding sufficiently to the strength of words from Quinn, et al, and if people aren't yet responding sufficiently to the strength of experience from the gods, then what magnitude of words or experience is going to be necessary to stop the Taker Juggernaut before it renders the planet nearly uninhabitable for us? While Jensen suggests that the taking down of civilization is necessary, how exactly is it to be accomplished to tackle all the big-businesses, police forces, governmental agencies, media and mass-production outlets, and individuals with vested interests in these organizations ... in every village, town, city, county, province, state, region, and country in the whole of Western Civilization? I think in My Ishmael, Julie suggested to Ishmael that even if humanity survived its collapse, it would most likely start building the Taker Thunderbolt again (I'm paraphrasing here). And Ishmael feared she would be right. R. Buckminster Fuller and R. Pirsig also express similar concerns. If the Taker Juggernaut were, somehow, dismantled, what would stand in its place that would give us sufficient breathing room in the viability of our species on this planet? While I don't think the battle is at all winnable, it's still the only one worth fighting. I'm not even sure this is what I wanted to write when I sat down here. Maybe I've been smoking too much weed. :) |
| Huby7 Fri Sep 10th, 2004 at 02:37 PM |
TonyZ You wrote:I really like Jensen, but the most significant part of his book, to me, turns out to have almost no support anywhere else. I'm talking about the baxter effect. It seems so profound, and the case made is so interesting... well, could anyone point me to so other research of primary perception? I'm really interested in the secret life of plants, but I am a little let down to find almost nothing about it on the interenet -- well, nothing the felt as credible as reading it in Jensen's book... I just ran across a book that I think you would just love, and the author references Jensen's interview with Cleve Backster in his book. The book is The Lost Language of Plants: The Ecological Importance of Plant Medicines for Life on Earth by Stephen Harrod Buhner. Take Care, Curt Occupied Anishinaabe Land |
| tonyz Sun Sep 12th, 2004 at 02:52 PM |
Thanks, Curt! ~TonyZ |
| Huby7 Mon Sep 13th, 2004 at 07:27 PM |
Eric, You wrote: " I feel fortunate to imagine other stories to be in." What happens when your enacting another story and a group of people next to you are enacting a different story, and they view you and the landbase as objects to exploit? How do you negotiate with people enacting this story? Or do you even try to negotiate? I don't know if asking questions like the ones above is playing victim. I consider these questions pretty signifigant when imagining another story to be in. Take Care, Curt Occupied Anishinaabe Land |
| Huby7 Tue Sep 14th, 2004 at 02:24 PM |
dust35, You wrote:"While Jensen suggests that the taking down of civilization is necessary, how exactly is it to be accomplished to tackle all the big-businesses, police forces, governmental agencies, media and mass-production outlets, and individuals with vested interests in these organizations ... in every village, town, city, county, province, state, region, and country in the whole of Western Civilization? What I've gathered from Derricks writing is that civilization is going to crash no matter what, so he suggests that we need to help bring about the crash as soon as possible. Reading his newest book about how to take down civlization has helped me understand why this is necessary. This book isn't published but you can read it if you join the Derrick Jensen Reading Club. You wrote: "I'm not even sure this is what I wanted to write when I sat down here. Maybe I've been smoking too much weed." LOL...it made a lot of sense to me. Now I know what juggernaut means. Take Care, Curt Occupied Anishinaabe Land |
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