Topic: Endgame Volume One: The Problem of Civilization

What is the best book of Jensen's to start with? I haven't read anything by him yet. Do his books have an order like Quinn's kind of do, or does it even matter?

I'm not even saying that is negative. I'm just saying that I'm saying.

Many people are afraid to feel despair. They fear that if they allow themselves to perceive how desperate our situation really is, they must then be perpetually miserable. They forget that it is possible to feel many things at once. They also forget that despair is an entirely appropriate response to a desperate situation. Many people probably also fear that if they allow themselves to perceive how desperate things are, they may be forced to do something about it.

Then I pick up the book and keep reading.

It's sooooo good. It's really great.

I guess he strategically waited until he got 250 pages in so that only those who were dedicated to reading the book would reach the juicy stuff. And also to filter out FBI agents who might be peruzing to find incriminating confessions.

Again, I don't know if Derrick goes on to address this, but taking out a dam or antenna is only one step, the next step is ensuring that it stays down.

I may be jumping the gun Kurt, because I've yet to read the entire book, but it seems to me that it would be futile to destroy things that can be rebuilt

If he asked me, do I want cellphone towers to come down, and I said no, do I have the same vote as a salmon? food for thought that's been churning in my head all week.

What would be even more constructive than this superficial suggestion of fighting fire with fire? Creating a system of de-centralized power. Reducing the need for big damns and transmission lines altogether, create an opportunity where damns can be dismantled as the weekend communtiy service project.

I appreciate where he is coming from, but it simply can't work in the way he is hoping it would.

The civil war began in August 1998 when Kabila, who had ousted Mobutu the year before, attempted to consolidate his regime by expelling the Rwandan military officers who had brought him to power. Various anti-Kabila Congolese joined the Congolese Democratic Movement (RDC), which began fighting to overthrow Kabila, with help from Rwanda and Uganda. (Burundi also has troops in the Congo but claims only to be fighting Burundian insurgents based on Congolese soil.)

Due to the damage caused to the Gorilla population and their natural habitat, companies that use Coltan are now starting to demand that their Coltan only comes from legitimately mined sources and is not a byproduct of the war. American-based Kemet, the world's largest maker of tantalum capacitors , has asked its suppliers to certify that their coltan ore does not come from Dem. Rep. of Congo or from neighbouring countries. Such moves could lead to "Gorilla Safe " cellphones being marketed, much in the same way that Tuna meat is now sold as "Dolphin Safe".

For example, petioners aver that "a single tower may kill thousands of birds in a single night." The only source for this assertion(emp. add) is at the Declaration of James Allen Cox(biologist af Miami Universtiy, Florida), and the only supporting evidence is a single study, calculating that approximately 38000 birds were killed at one location over a 29-year period. Petition exhibit E at para. 5. That averages out to 1300 deaths per year, and fewer than four per day

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I'm sorry, but I don't want to read the book. From his fans I've heard nothing that leads me to believe that Jensen has any redeeming qualities.

The only good things I've heard are cult-like admiration for his writing style

discuss something he wrote about that doesn't involve senseless displays of testosterone-powered white-male guilt.

Not a single one of his fans has ever told me anything he wrote or wrote about that didn't involve such things.

But as of right now I'm not terribly impressed with either Jensen or his fans.

PLEASE, PEOPLE WHO HAVE NOT ACTUALLY READ ENDGAME, DON'T POST IN THIS THREAD.

Let's break it down for your community college ass( I love that I can give you shit Adam without you taking your toys and going home):

IF fans talk about blowing shit up

THEN passerbys get the impression that this is what he talks about.

But since you Jensen fans continuously bring it up, I don't have anything else to go on, do I?

no, assnine, the subject comes up repeatedly because we have to move passed the traditionally disabling pacifist arguments - something some people here pretend they can't get passed.

hey that's pretty funny, assnine. Since we've been talking about Star Trek, too, how about ass of nine?

Adam has managed to write a whole post and communicate nothing of consequence other than to prove once again that he belongs on my ignore list.

I renew my offer to Adam. If you ever decide to learn how to talk to people in way that might possibly allow you to be convincing at any level, I will be willing to help you.

I also ask once more. Out of hope, desperation, or perhaps mere sadism. Tell me something about this man and what he says that you love so. Tell me something. Give me anything. A single off-topic sentence in a rant. Something. Please.

I still feel a twinge each time I say, "I am not a Christian," a slight apprehension that I may have gone too far. Sometimes I look up, a small part of my upbringing still telling me that my blasphemy will call forth a bolt of lightning from the sky. Blasphemy is more complicated than the simple act of cursing God. It is an attempt to remove our cultural eyeglasses, or at least grind the lenses to make our focus broader, clearer. There are deep strictures against removing these glasses, for without them our culture would fall apart.

The staunch refusal to hear the voices of those we exploit is crucial to our domination of them.

Looking back, I dont know how anyone could possibly say that he or she has successfully run a writing class without having played hide-and-go-seek with overweight old men, twenty-year-olds, middle-aged mothers of five, and a half-dozen men and women whose native language is not English, all of them dead serious about finding or not being found.

I knew, mainly from watching movies (as opposed to direct experience :my friends and I were nothing if not nerds) that a primary way a person signals a willingness, nay, eagerness, to kiss is by flickering one's glance from the other's eyes down to lips, and back up. This never happened . I found out later she spoke a different language, where one signals this interest by intently looking at the other's eyes. She had evidently watched different movies than I.

The fact that industrial education murders souls instead of bodies doesn't reduce my culpability.

So then you are just being an asshole for the sake of being an asshole?

How could anyone ever possibly argue real arguments with you when you throw around words like "fuck "asshole" "idiot" into every other word?

I know it's difficult for you, but try to be respectful. Most everyone else here argues, but at least they do it with a little bit of maturity.

deep seated anger problems and unjustified hostility

building tribal connections

Take a class in logic and you'll see.

....now back to ENDGAME!

Yeah, I'm offended, because everytime you say something it has to be something bad. Now why is that?

And it's Miranda, so stop with the "menrandes" shit.

It's funny, I jump into these stupid little things every once in a while to defend others because I care and then get thrown at with things like...June Cleaver. OH MY GOD!!!

As for Ben's parents - since the subject was brought up - I know them too, and the one word that I would never use for them is neglectful. His mom is a little off the wall and his dad's a bit too Vulcan at times, but never neglectful.

I know about Jensen's parents through A Language Older than Words. Does Endgame talk about them too?


Is Jensen really a millionaire?

As for thread jacking? I'll apologize for my part in it, but it seems things like this happen more and more often here on Ishcon. Nice..community...
Right.

Adam,

Upload a picture of yourself. I need to be able to put a face to a personality.

All I am saying is, until this civilization is dead, there will be no chance of escape. We are dealing with a monster here folks.

the best and most representative picture i know of is:

Yes but, what if when this happens the salmon have been extinct for years? What if when finally enough people see the horror of civilization, there are no more rain forests?

When will this alleged tipping point occur??? When water is no longer drinkable? I'll tell you when peoples minds will change; when it's too fucking late.

http://www.ishmael.com/Education/Parables/SinkingShip.shtml

I'll tell you when peoples minds will change; when it's too fucking late.

I'll tell you when peoples minds will change; when it's too fucking late.

That metaphor doesn't work for this scenario.

The "lifeboats" aren't shit without a healthly landbase.

The longer civilization is here, the smaller the lifeboats get... Until one day, not even a single human may fit in them. If you've read Jensen you know of this cultures Death Urge. They will intentionally destroy life boats, or those in power (the rich), as on the Titanic, will steal the lifeboats you have taken so much time and energy and soul to build.

We're in a predicament here. And it's fucked. Just thought I'd point that out! haha.

Derrick's work appeals to those who feel the effects of the Boiling Frog metaphor. Daniel Quinn's work ignores the fact that people in this culture are insane and will not change.

You could interperet Daniel Quinn as saying, "If only people would create something better than what we have now, then humans would stop destroying the planet."

No, in fact the facts support me.

You see, I said "any culture or relevance."

What I meant to say was, any culture or group that is gaining in wealth or power or popularity that threatens thoughs in power.

Look at all the "Cults" that have been put down.
You may buy land, you may learn (outside of institutuional learning, and fuck equating "sustianable living books" with being raised in a sustainable indigenous culture) how to live in a sustainable way, and build an ecovillage on your land. But so fucking what? I mean, who runs away to the circus anymore?

If you honestly think people will give up being slaves after all, they're not slaves you know, they're living in the land of the free, you have lost touch with reality.

I don't hear most people ever talk about the tipping point element of "environment." In order for a tipping point to occur an envrionment has to be set up for it. I will place bets that the tipping point will happen only when people can no longer get cable or buy gas or groceries from the store.

If the Amish started buying weapons, accumulating wealth, and speaking of over throwing the government they would probably be put down.

Joe, shit can hit the fan AND the economy can become systems-based. These activities aren't mutaully exclusive.

I had an okay time at the ecovillage; I'll likely be accepted for residency.

I really like what Derrick Jensen has to say. It is very important for me to see just what I am contributing to by being a part of civilization.

Here's what I don't understand, the question I rarely ever see addressed: isn't it missing the point to talk about bringing down civilization without bringing down civilization in yourself first?

How is it not backwards to take down cellphone towers while still using a cellphone? Wouldn't you stop using the cellphone first? This is just an analogy, we can go much farther than that. How is it not backwards to bring down civilization while still using money? While still using its resources?

In a low energy future, most of today's technology and culture will end up in the dustbin of history; but some aspects of modernity may provide critical components of an energy descent culture. Permaculture principles provide one lens for helping to identify the useful pieces of modernity and combine them with those from nature and from pre-modern cultures in a new designed synthesis

Sure, so no one can walk away fully. Civilization won't allow that, it's too powerful, etc. But do we really think we can get no farther than the endless discussions of this shit on the internet? Are we really THAT stuck? This is a serious question: What are people doing here?

I stopped in because I was curious if any new developments had come along.

But it's the same stuff, over and over. Are people actually doing anything? I know some of the people here are, and I know what I'm doing. But for everyone else, is this just a joke? An escapist fantasy, albeit a very unpleasant one? I'm beginning to think it is.

I had an okay time at the ecovillage; I'll likely be accepted for residency.

The point is this: there are so many different ways to start, so many different ways to approach this journey we call life. If people are different, can't we let it go?

But I think you already know the answer to that question. How many more arguments do you have before someone writes a book about walking away from IshCon? At least then you would have new material to argue about.

Here's what I don't understand, the question I rarely ever see addressed: isn't it missing the point to talk about bringing down civilization without bringing down civilization in yourself first?

How is it not backwards to take down cellphone towers while still using a cellphone? Wouldn't you stop using the cellphone first? This is just an analogy, we can go much farther than that. How is it not backwards to bring down civilization while still using money? While still using its resources?

Are people actually doing anything?

I'm at home for a week or so before I go up to Wisconsin to visit the Teaching Drum Outdoor School... there is a job opening there, nannying for a four-year old boy

How many more arguments do you have before someone writes a book about walking away from IshCon?

You pay taxes on the land right? So that's all you are. A bunch of tax-paying farmers. Way to move beyond civilization guys!

The culture won't become sustainable. It can't. The tipping point will not be one of sustainability, it will be one of collapse.

Adam is f'n HILARIOUS!

Okay then Pete.

If civilzation is going to crash anyway, why spend the time and take the risk of tearing it down?

I will not destroy civilization, but I understand and agree that it needs to be done.

Failure at the green revolution more than likely will be bankruptcy

Hey, Jim. I wasn't frustrated, mostly curious. The internet is clearly missing the point for me, I knew that already. I really was just stopping in to see what was going on here.

Most of the power, I feel, is in the next generation. This is why taking care of a kid at a wilderness awareness school is an important step for me. It is far easier to not domesticate another person than it is to undo domestication later. And in the meantime, I get to learn what I need to in order to live outside of civilization.

The big question for me was just how stuck people here were. I'm definitely coming from a different place than most people, I have opportunities that others do not. I recognize this. I do not intend to wave around my opportunities, asking "hello, what's wrong with everyone else?" My intent was 1. to suggest that these endless arguments were endless because people are stuck, and 2. to say that perhaps there were ways to become unstuck. But maybe there aren't opportunities, I dunno. If I'm mistaken, everyone, by all means, continue arguing.

How long does it take to be officially stuck?

the best and most representative picture i know of is: