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Topic: My Reply (An Anthropik Repost)
Part of the forum "Speakers Corner" in the IshCon Forum Archive
| Poster and Date | Post |
| Hypnopompia Mon Apr 10th, 2006 at 12:28 AM |
Jason has asked that Miranda and I "prepare responses to fix this situation." Miranda has decided to not do so. But I will. The situation Jason refers to is the "major damage [done] to the tribe" in Miranda's last post. This damage is that we have seemingly made Anthropik look bad. Hostile public arguments between people who are supposedly working together on a project reflect poorly on the project and the people in that project. This one instance has apparently undone the work Jason has done over the past two years in a matter of hours. The responses that Jason has demanded that we make are to "repair the damage your careless, callous actions have caused." I was told that Al had "launched a little smear campaign against the Tribe of Anthropik on multiple weblogs, and none of them have a way for me to respond to try to do some damage control on this little crisis." I searched as well as I could. I know his full name, education, physical location, where he works, where he goes to school (he's a graduate student), etc. I found two blogs that mentioned anything. There was a place to comment on both, on one no one had. The other had four short ones. Perhaps I'm missing them, I'm not the best at internet searches. But I looked for them so I could prepare a response for other blogs. So I could counter the attacks. I'm wondering how many people who aren't looking for them will see. Ironically, one of the blogs that I did find now has an additional complaint about Jason's latest comment on Buddhism. The other was on livejournal. This doesn't seem to be a very concerted attack on Anthropik. Jason, this post is for you, I know you won't see it that way. This will probably permanently establish the rift that has been between us for several months now. I have some difficult things to say, but I feel that there are sufficiently valuable lessons here to warrant making this public. I fear that saying some of these things will harm Anthropik and those associated with Anthropik. This is not my intention or desire, and I hope that it is not my affect. In the mean time, I hope that what I have to say is understood and appreciated. I will begin with discussing the post and accompanying comments that set this off: My Ethics: I make no claim that anyone else shares these ethics, and such a claim should not be assumed. If you want to know if someone shares my view, you must ask them. Selfishness is not a poor adaptation. No species comes into being failing, the very idea runs contrary to known science, reason, logic, and gut feeling. If people have a tendency to be selfish or lazy than it must have had a positive, adaptive value in the past. When we were tribal. Selfishness does not mean that a person is only out for themselves. Selfishness always extends beyond the person in question to people that person considers family and community. People want what's best, not only for themselves, but also for those they consider to be kin. In a tribe this is paramount. What is also paramount is that this self-interest does not extend beyond the tribe, how can a tribe continue to thrive when it's wasting it's energy on other groups? I said that I did not care about them, and I don't. I can't truly care, I don't know them. I also have no intention on harming any of them. Didn't I just say I didn't care? To want to go out of your way to kill someone you need to care, a lot. The Hobbian idea that by not caring about a person I will automatically default to wanting them dead is nonsensical. Not caring means being indifferent, not hating them. My ethics say that community is first, above all else. When people are in a community they are healthier, happier, and more energized. This is actually the basis of modern group therapy. When it is taken away people react strongly and poorly. Al's Ethics: I can only base this on what Al accused me of, as he never truly explained his ethics. Despite my inquiry. I was accused of being Ayn Rand as an insult, so I must assume that he is diametrically opposed to Ayn Rand's philosophy. I will assume that he read the philosophy, despite his obvious miss application of it to me. I was accused of lacking ethics, which would indicate that the ethics he follows are "true ethics" and other formulations are not ethical. He accused me of wanting to hurt, rape and murder other people due to being selfishness with no attempt to overcome it. Due to me not attempting to overcome my time-tested and proved neurological limitations I was deemed "animal" and "sub-human." The two were equating indicating a belief that humans are superior to other animals. He posted the following: Quote: Leaving aside satirical scenarios, did you miss out on the last couple of thousand years of human civilization completely and decide that only caring about your only family was an adequate response instead of simply a starting point? I'd point to political philosophy and concepts around the brotherhood of humanity current since the Enlightenment but you probably wouldn't care. Heck, I can point to Chinese writings from 2,000 years ago that say your way is actively evil but you probably don't care either. Which indicates that civilized ethics are the basis of his ethical beliefs. This indicates the source of disagreement. My ethics are not civilized, while Al's are. He followed this as such: Quote: Just don't cross my path if things go south. With your beliefs, you'd be like a viper in the midst of normal people trying to maintain community and working together. You'd probably justify anything in the name of self-interest if it didn't directly harm you or your family, right? In other words, you are morally bankrupt and anyone on this site that works with you should really consider what you've said here before trusting you and turning their back if there wasn't a legal system to keep you in check. Which would seem to indicate a willful misunderstanding. As I had previously said : Quote: My ethics are based on the idea that having a community and supporting that community are the greatest things a person can strive for. Selfish always extends to "family." It's the way humans work, and it does work because it leads to continuation of your genome. So we can see a familiar technique of the strawman. A word that describes a situation in which one person will create an argument or statement and assign it the opposing side in a debate. The assigner will then attack this, always flawed, argument as if he had actually discredited the person who had never made such a claim. After calling both Miranda and I evil, a moral judgement that does not enter into my ethics, he said this: Quote: Let's repeat it, for the sake of understanding: just because you can do something doesn't mean you should do something or that it is ethical to do it. This important principle seems lost on you two. What stops you from beginning your rampage now like two good Natrual Born Killers? Fear of Johnny Law or lack of the urge to kill at this point for some other reason? Seriously, what is holding you two back from acting out your ethics that being selfish is virtuous? Again, he is attacking a strawman, but again it is very insightful. He gives us our first insight into his ethics by saying that ability does not equal morality. Something that would agree to. The latter part of this passage seems to indicate a very Hobbian ideal again. Selfishness and therefore selfish people are evil. And selfishness (or a lack of caring about people unknown to you) would automatically lead someone to want to kill those people. He claims my ethics are based on killing people. After this I was again called sub-human due to my ethics, with accompanying implication that animals are inferior to humans. He also claimed that I intended to eat all other humans. I had not yet made my cannibalism joke. This is the first reference to it on this thread. After this I said that "I think [al would] taste good with carrots." It was a joke. I remained in as good humor as possible throughout the thread despite this comment: Quote: If and when the collapse comes, if you wander into my area looking for food, I'll just shoot you and dismember the corpse. By your logic, this is both ethical and normal behavior since I don't know you. Why shouldn't I? Besides, then I can take your stuf, maybe any women with you, and they'll belong to me if I can keep them. I had not once said I would harm him or anyone else. He claimed that by logic he would be within his rights to kill me and rape my family. I was probably the most insulted at reading this. But once we see his comments like this, we can read into his ethics. Compassion is the greatest good, and caring about and helping people you don't know is important. Anyone who thinks otherwise is evil, and sub-human. Humans are not limited by reality like poor, rotten animals. Humans are a higher breed. I do not agree with this appraisal, and by it's logic I am a sub-human who is not worthy of being heard or understood. This fully explains why he made no attempt to understand my point of view. Anthropik, the website: After all this had happened I received an email from Jason. It said: Quote: Ben, being right isn't always what's important. Yes, you were right. Whoopdie fucking doo. You sounded like a genocidal maniac in the process. This is a question of how you FEEL, and you come off like an unfeeling, cold psychopath. You're going to talk about CANNIBALISM at this point? WTF is wrong with you? I replied by apologizing that I am unable to get emotionally worked up about accepting that I am unable to get emotionally worked up. Although the most upsetting part of this, I have now decided, is that I was defending Miranda. So if I was right, than Miranda was too. So why was Miranda attack not only by Al, but also by Jason? Perhaps Mike's comment was the most illuminating as to rest of this article: Quote: Ben, you say that it's impossible to care about people you don't know. Well, I say that merely demonstrates a rather disgusting lack of compassion. Are you really so shallow in your ability to care for others that your empathy is limited solely to those people you personally know? Are you really that far gone? And don't even try using that sort of evolutionary double talk as a justification. Evolution is no substitute for ethics. And any person who would use it as such is a monster. That's something that was recognized even in Darwin's time. So yeah, you may "win" in terms of genetic survival. But I will have won as a human being. In the e-mail, that Mike also received, Jason said that this was incorrect. I think the most telling part of this is that not caring makes a person a monster, which follows the ethics espoused by Al, as discussed earlier. An ethics from victorian England, as Mike pointed out, an ethical system that is responsible for some of the most appalling tragedies and genocides in history. Mike has a decree in psychology, which means that he knows one of the most telling aspects of a psychopath is a lack of empathy, of not caring about others. He should also know that a psychopath does not care about anyone at all, kin or no. I repeated said that I care about my kin. I've said it before: humans are not so much rational as rationalizing. Miranda's and my own thoughts were uncomfortable to some people who are still concentrating on the negative aspects of a collapse. They then fell upon old ways, and we were declared sub-human. An accusation made all the more distressing when echoed by a member of Anthropik. I've lost as a human being for concentrating on a better future than was imaginable twenty years ago? If so, I'm perfectly fine not being human, it seems to be awfully over rated to me. Naturally the ultimate question is: what started all this? I don't have an exact answer for that as it dates back a few months. I first noticed it beginning around New Year's, but I wasn't sure until February. What set off this is simple: the accompanying article, Miranda's. This is the full text: Quote: I'm one of those people that say, "Well, come on already, Collapse Already!!!" This mostly stems from frustration with civilization and everything that comes with it. Things being futile, greed, intense depression, and of course rent. Knowing that Collapse is coming somehow makes it worse in ways. I know it's coming, I'm waiting for it, but in the meantime I'm stuck. I feel trapped in this life of school, paying bills, and people that are fake. Hey, I know they can't really help it. Civilization creates people that act fake. Sad, but true. Every once in a while I will feel this depression to an extreme degree. Today was one of those days. It is a chilly day, chilly enough for snow to be flying. Yet I decided to walk. I zipped up my lightweight coat, put on the hood, and faced the wind. With no destination in mind, I wandered rather aimlessly. Do you know what I found during my walk? Plants! On my walk I picked dandelions, rather large ones. Not the ones that you find on suburbia's lawns, but the ones that are allowed to grow without limit. I found wild onions sprouting up in any random spot. I also found mint, which I have been hoping I would find. I know it's not much, but I smiled a little. Still, it's on days like these that I wonder what I'm still doing in school if a degree will not matter in just a few years. Is it simply for vanity's sake? Something to ponder. I'm not as smart as I would like to be. I know that. I also know that I haven't learned a thing at this school that actually makes me feel smarter. Nothing that makes me say, "Oh, I'll be able to use this information in a few years!" Mostly what I've learned is how to be lonely surrounded by people. I'm just contemplating options for this coming fall and hoping that whatever this feeling is will go away, or at least lessen a bit. At least I know that however I feel, there is always the woods to walk in to help clear my head, always a tree to sit under and think. Nowhere in it does Miranda "gleefully" desire the deaths of six billion people. In fact, the entire article concentrates on Miranda's distaste of civilization, it's trappings, it's trap, and having to live in it. The only place I see even a possible misinterpretation is where she says "oh, collapse already." Notice she never deals with that crash, in fact the comment seems to be concentrating on the years after the crash. When the comment is taken in context this becomes abundantly clear. So clear that it sparked many supportive comments: Quote: you don't seem to write much on this blog, but wow, i really relate to what you do write. keep up the good work, it keeps me coming back Quote: many of the issues brought up on this site are academic. I enjoy your writing as it really brings the issues home for me Quote: Isn't that delightful? You know what's going on, but it's hard to act upon it because everybody else is going about their lives like it's all gonna last forever. Quote: Greetings. I saw a recent blog post of yours on the Anthropik website; and whoa, I can totally relate. Quote: Yes. Hang in there, and keep feeding your brain (and your compost pile). Quote: Continuing to play the game of civilization while knowing it is futile sure is frustrating. However, civilization is still able to reach into every corner of the world and thus very hard to avoid completely. Keep up the walks in the park and the plant gathering. It is very soothing, isn't it? And it has the added advantage of honing your truly useful skills. Good luck and know that there are others feeling the same thing. Quote: You're more intelligent than you think. This is a great blog; your insights are interesting and thought provoking. I just finished school a couple years ago after a long and frustrating haul with little support. I'm glad I stuck with it, though there were times I didn't think I could hang on. Yes most people are fake and self-centered, but you'll find that everywhere. Try to seek out those who are passionate about life and considerate of others. School's like lemons, they're sour and they suck, but you can make them into lots of tasty things like lemonade and lemon cream pie. Try to hang in there! Quote: i have the same feelings every time i'm forced to deal with the system. i find myself hoping for the collapse if only just for the change because this world SUCKS. how fun is it to be forced to play a game that is obviously rigged in the house's favor in EVERY way? forget your christian ideas of hell, we are already there. Quote: Try living life as *real* as you can. Tired of the money game? Discover how many ways you can bypass the system! For example: gather wildfoods whenever possible, make them a part of your diet and life now so that when it all comes tumbling down, you'll be comfortable with them and wise in their usage. As for school, remember that you're not there for the diploma (that's just icing on the cake), you're there for the education. If you've chosen your courses well you'll be studying things that will be useful no matter what happens. Quote: Out for a walk picking naturals is a great mood enhancer. Try exploring new territories, this always arouses curiousity and will get your mind working. And be sure to take note of the edibles, you may need them soon! Quote: if all you do is buy veggies and some other esstienal foods at the grocery store, your life will be waaaaaay easier. Quote: I live in Croatia where is still plenty of untouched wild nature. I could go straight to the forest and start living like a hunter-gatherer. I also would'nt worry about camping or hunting permits as far as I stay away from hunting zones and a few national monuments. It was always my dream to build a small cabin somewhere in the wilderness and live off the land. There is nothing "technical" or "practical" that hinders me to realise that. However I am also trapped within this system and it is because I hope one day I 'll get "repaired" in some ways. I plan to aplly for Dr. Janov's primal therapy in LA, so that's why I am continuing a long study of medicine in hope for a decent job and income that would allow me to immigrate and so on. Until I get that done, I 'll just continue to live a non-life in civilisation. Quote: Taking a walk is helpful ... especially barefoot ... shoes separate us from nature in an insidious way. All of these become all the more striking by the next comment: Quote: This post demonstrates the major problem I have with the views of people on this site, as much as I might agree about the eventual results of things. Everyone here seems very self-absorbed and uninterested (and uncompassionate) towards the plight of others. Oh, I'm sorry that you don't like current society, don't fit in, and don't have a lot of financial success. Sure, our current culture sucks dramatically on many many levels. What about everyone ELSE? I hate to break it to you but if we get a full collapse BILLIONS of people will die. No one in this little tribe seems to care at all. "Well, that's too bad but they are going to die anyway..." While you are joyfully cheering the apocalypse because it means that you will be able to live the life you dream of (because, of course, you won't die or be killed in a collapse), you are also cheering for the misery and death of BILLIONS. That's what I appreciate about the people over at the World Changing Blog. At least they seem to care about other people besides themselves and aren't joyfully waiting for the party they can have when the world collapses with a look of gleee in their eyes. Quite a change, and certainly not a majority opinion. And yet here comes, to my ethical view, the most appalling breach of ethics: Jason's first reply to the post rather than to the comments. Quote: I can't speak for anyone else, but Giuli and I agonize over that constantly. I've written about that quite a bit. It took me years to come to terms with it. But when it comes right down to it, there's not a damn thing we can do about it. It's our ancestors' fault. That's cold comfort, but this was all set in stone long before we were born. So, I do what I can. The sooner collapse happens, and the quicker it happens, the less catastrophic it will be. It's already been delayed so long that it's hard to imagine how it could possibly be worse, but it can ... it can still be so much worse. What can I do? Every individual that I can reach, that I can convince to "abandon ship" before it's too late, is one more person who might make it. Believe me, that reality haunts my every moment--has haunted it for years. Giuli is regularly reduced to tears by it. But we were put into this position by our ancestors thousands of years ago. Damn them for not collapsing in the Bronze Age, when it was just millions! But then, millions, billions? They felt the same way I do now, and back then there really was a way out. Can I blame them so much for taking it? Yes, because in doing so, they damned us to even worse. Will we do the same to our grandchildren? Fortunately for them, I don't think we'll have that option. But you're quite wrong if you think it doesn't affect us. I think Miranda's anticipation is ... well, in poor taste, frankly. But I can understand it. You're quite, quite wrong if you think it doesn't weigh heavily on us. I know it weighs on me. But such sadness is paralyzng. You have to find some way to reconcile yourself to that truth, wipe your tears, and find the strength to stand and do something, do what you can, while you still can. That's what I'm doing. What are you doing? Jason, you did speak for everyone else. But you misjudged the prevailing viewpoint. You're smart and usually pretty good at picking up context. This leads me to question whether you read the article. Repetition does not make a statement correct, merely more believable. To my recollection you've talked to Miranda very few times, and I almost always in my presence. Also I spend more time with Miranda than you do. Miranda's glee is and always has been directed to the future beyond the collapse. The opportunity it presents. Neither her nor I have ever "cheered for the misery and death of BILLIONS." At the end I got the distinct pleasure of being equated with Stalin. Which is the academic's equivalent of calling someone Hitler. The lack of use among the hoipoli makes it acceptable. What happened next seals the deal in this escapade. Jason's final post included this statement: Quote: Miranda's statement was incalculably callous, even monstrous, but I doubt she had any of that in mind when she wrote it. In some ways, that makes it even worse, because then it is simply that she did not even think of the billions who would suffer and die. I cannot quote it exactly, but during the infamous marriage thread I had a phone conversation with Jason. I suggested that Jason was being more defensive than usual because it was Guili. Jason replied that he was not being more defensive, but that he'd respond that way for any member of the tribe. Why did he not this time? "You're not actually *in*the tribe yet." This is true. Although what this means was never specified. Apparently Jason has now specified it: Quote: When the pledges burn down the frat house, that's not a good thing. Calling it "my site," Miranda, was a nice touch, but it's "our site"--the exclusive "our," the tribe's. Unless and until you're admitted, you're both guests here. So, I'm not interested in excuses. You did major damage to the tribe. Your feelings are irrelevant at the moment. Prepare responses to fix this situation. We have been ordered by our pledge master to fix the damage. The damage being specified here: Quote: This allegation that we're genocidal maniacs is one I've been fighting for years. It goes with the territory when you acknowledge the facts. Our enemies (yes, we have enemies) are going to be all over this like stink on shit. I can't think of any way that you could have done more damage with an internet connection. What I've built up carefully, painstakingly, methodically over the past two years, you've managed to tear to pieces in a few hours. Do you understand the enormity of this? Our orders are here detailed: Quote: When I open the comments back up, there'd better be some fucking poetry coming out of all of you, showing that you understand the other side, where they're coming from, and ESPECIALLY that you understand the enormity of what we're talking about here. Start writing it now, it's gotta be the most fucking nuanced piece you've ever written to even start to repair the damage your careless, callous actions have caused. Quite frankly this is unacceptable, insulting, and contrary to the very nature of a tribe. I for one hereby withdraw my application. Miranda can speak for herself, but I have made my decision. The Tribe of Anthropik Perhaps Miranda put it the best at dinner when we talked about this, "the Tribe of Anthropik is a website, nothing more." I've been an applicant of the tribe since October. I've never even had dinner with them all at once. I've never seen Steve and Mike in the same room, and neither seems to want anything to do with me. Which is fine. You don't know me. How about an attempt next time someone expresses an interest? Maybe giving me your contact information would be a start. I asked Jason for these from you and was informed that that was not going to be useful. A self-fufilling prophesy if I ever heard one. Miranda reminded me of something that happened last time we were in Pittsburgh. Miranda was talking about saving some of the children she knows (Miranda loves taking care of children). Jason's comment was on eating them. He was joking, of course. But it upset Miranda and she asked him to stop. He did not. This is not making people feel welcome. For a materialist determinist I find it surprising that you do not understand the idea that behavior can cause feelings as assuredly as feelings can cause behavior. Treat someone like family and you'll find yourself thinking of them that way. Treat them like an outsider and they remain that way. I tease my family, too. I stop before they reach the brink of tears. I'm sorry I sound angry, but I am hurt by the course of events here. I've been told that Jason is "not even interested in [my] feelings." And that my "feelings are irrelevant at the moment." Despite this I will offer my feelings. I'm hurt, disappointed, and confused. Jason, you of all people should know better than this. Something else is motivating your actions. If you wanted Miranda and I to withdraw you could have spoken to us on this directly. But despite all this, I have learned from this situation and would like to share my lessons. 1) A forming tribe must have an established way of dealing with new applicants. And the applicants must be made aware of this process. All tribe members must be involved in this process. The expectations of both applicants and tribe members should be specified, this should include the privileges and responsibilities of both. 2) Any hierarchy is too much. Jason has complete control of the website. He uses this power, despite his detailed knowledge about what that does. 3) An understanding of mythology is more important than a knowledge of what happened. Who, what, when, where, and how are very important. But without that why all you have is statistics, no story. Why is the difference between knowing and understanding. Why is the difference between a culture and an anthropology club. Why is the difference between a blurb on page 10 and a Pulitzer Prize. 4) Making the connection between people physical is important. You have to be near each other. Near enough that there is a chance that you can randomly run into each other. And close enough that you randomly stop by each other's work. The internet and phones do not allow people to connect properly. 5) Making the connection ephemeral is important. Something to make people feel like a group. A ritual to join. A ritual when you greet. A group name. Something. Anthropik has these (the ritual to greet was a bear hug), except a ritual to join. This caused problems. 6) All decisions that affect the group need to be at least mentioned to the group before they are implemented. And all such decisions should be written out and available to all members and potential members. 7) If it is decided that an applicant will not join the tribe for any reason this needs to be explained completely and fully. It needs to be understood. Making a person feel uncomfortable in the situation sufficiently for them to want to leave simply alienates people that you might have to work with again. Explaining why they won't fit in and wishing them well fosters continued understanding. I received an email from my mother. She still reads my writing, even though she hasn't edited anything of mine since high school, bless her. She said that she was just too late to make her first comment on Anthropik, but requested that I forward her comment as I see fit. Quote: I have been following this thread and others like it for awhile now, and have never been as outraged, and therefore motivated to respond. All of you are so full of your own superior “ethics,” “morals,” and “judgments” you are missing the most important point Miranda was making. She obviously feels so disinherited by our present culture she is willing to go through whatever hell is required to change her world and her life. Perhaps this is because she feels her life encompasses a little piece of that hell already. This is not the cry of a “selfish” person. This is the distressed cry of a seriously depressed young lady. And all of you are so damned full of yourselves that instead of supporting her and showing her why this world and this life might be worth salvaging you are ripping whatever base she has left to shreds. Shame on all of you. You have no compassion. You are not animals. You are less than animals. When a family pet sees that his person is sad he will come close and show his person he is loved and cared for by one creature in this world. Well, maybe calling Benjamin an animal was right. He was the only one to show Miranda the compassion and understanding every human animal deserves. The last time someone wrote an article complaining about an element of our culture that was upsetting them she was attacked as well. The differences between the two are obvious. I would like to talk more about the connections within the Tribe of Anthropik (between Jason, Guili, Mike, and Steve), but I've never really seen any. All I know is that there is a general sense of discontent. I'm left in a very uncomfortable position. I will not join Anthropik. The situation here is no longer to my liking. I have not changed any of my other positions and fully intend to enjoy the fullness of life that we have been without for far too long. As for Jason, I'm sorry for any trouble this causes you. And I wish you luck on your third Tribe. On Edit: Just two more things to add. One, Miranda has asked that I announce that she has withdrawn from Anthropik in private email to Jason. Two, I do not want to start any flame wars here. If the Anthropik flame war comes over I ask that this thread be locked immediately. I do not want to cause any harm to Ishcon. I only want to ensure that everyone who should read this can. I doubt that it will stay on Anthropik for very long, and I do not have access to another public place. I'm appologize if this causes any problems. But I hope that my seven points are understood and appriciated by the people here, even if you don't agree. Look for Miranda's and my new blog, coming soon. |
| mag Mon Apr 10th, 2006 at 01:08 AM |
If you're done with your little pity party, I can tell you the real reason you didn't make it in Anthropik. In the time you've been with us, both of you have demonstrated a complete disregard for the truth. You've demonstrated a complete disregard for the feelings of others. And you've demonstrated a complete disregard for the well-being of Anthropik's members. That's three strikes. The truth is you didn't have to quit. We had decided shortly before this incident began that your request for membership was going to be denied. All that remained to be decided was when and how to tell you and to what extent you would remain associated with Anthropik. But your callousness and self-centered attitude in recent days has pretty much taken care of that for us. So I'm sorry you didn't have what it takes. But I assure you, the loss of two people who never really put that much concern into Anthropik in the first place will be no huge loss on our part. The fact that you feel it is appropriate to now launch into a mudslinging campaign against Anthropik only makes me all the more certain that we were right not to approve your membership. I suppose all I can do is remind you...  Mike |
| Hypnopompia Mon Apr 10th, 2006 at 01:11 AM |
Mike, I asked that the Anthropik flame war not move to Ishcon. Please honor my request. |
| Menrandes Mon Apr 10th, 2006 at 01:12 AM |
Funny thing, I never asked to be in Anthropik. An authorship was given, I took it. sure i did! But your misrepresentative of the facts is amusing to me. For everyone else, read the post. Find out the truth for yourself, don't listen to others, listen to yourself. |
| mag Mon Apr 10th, 2006 at 01:20 AM |
"Hypnopompia" wrote: Mike, I asked that the Anthropik flame war not move to Ishcon. Please honor my request. If you didn't want a flame war on IshCon, you shouldn't have started one. It's bad enough that you so blatantly abused the privileges given to you on Anthropik. Now you're going to start posting your propaganda all over the internet just because you want to have your little temper tantrum? If you're looking to prove that you can be a functioning member of an actual tribe, I don't think this is the way to go about it. But regardless, I have the right to tell people here what really happened just as much as you have the right to post your little smear-fest. Mike |
| Hypnopompia Mon Apr 10th, 2006 at 01:20 AM |
How long do you think it will take Jason to post an article on the capital offense among tribes: betrayal? On edit, Mike. If you were to actually begin even telling people your side I'd be amazed. So far you've done nothing but play with revisionist history and ad hominems. Actually, I don't believe I've heard a coherent argument out of you this week. And as for my priviliages on Anthropik, Jason stripped them when he order me to appologize for being right. I don't care about the truth? Jason said that being right didn't matter. And that's fine. I was right. I continue to be right. This doesn't change the fact that Anthropik never had any intention of expanding beyond Jason's cliche. I know this because I had to fight tooth and nail to even meet you. I really should have left a long time ago. I do hope that you guys take my advice though. A primitivist tribe is a wonderful idea, I hope you all decide to make a go at creating one. |
| Menrandes Mon Apr 10th, 2006 at 01:23 AM |
I give it a week. |
| TwoRoadsTom Mon Apr 10th, 2006 at 02:58 AM |
I'd like to thank you, one and all, for reminding me that we're all human. I read through the posts as they were happening and was saddened by the overall shape of them. It's an interesting thing, watching perceptions change; as in all dialogues, people follow the tone of the conversation and often miss what they were first talking about. I find myself, at the end, respecting Anthropik, though I'm saddened by what happened. And I equally find myself respecting Ben and Miranda because I do understand exactly what they meant, though words get in the way sometimes. I find myself in these places because I'm ruthlessly reminded of what we're up against, a hostile mental space called Civilization that denies us sanity, companionship and a chance at harmony between us and the world. I'm also reminded that, for the moment, I'm a fat white guy, sitting off on the West Coast, no further in my skills than the average suburbanite expected to die in any collapse. I have no large tribe to back me up (certainly not like my Ojibwe, Dine and Xicano friends), just a group of precious friends who believe in me enough to tolerate me and sometimes even follow my lead. Most of all, though, I believe this. What we do here, for all the pain, misunderstanding, flames, stupidity, et al, is the most important thing in our lives. To even attempt to build something new -- something human NOT utopian -- isn't that worth it? Isn't that worth every single stinking, stupid mistake? Isn't that worth coming back again and again to the well, carrying more than you can bear, for the hope to see your tree of hope bear fruit? Isn't trying to "save the world", as B puts it, worth it? What you experienced, guys, is nothing new. It happens in the First Nations tribes, despite the fact they know they're outgunned. It happens among friends, even when they know they respect one another. It's happened to me. I hope, for the sake of sanity, that one day the proto-tribes around Pittsburgh meet up at a dinner table, in person, take up a glass of whatever the hell you're drinking this week and say "We were young. We were stupid. I'm glad to, right now, call you friend." With no apologies, with few regrets, may you find the next step on your divergent paths to be sweet and easy. Best Bill Maxwell |
| wildway Mon Apr 10th, 2006 at 03:02 AM |
Beautifully put, Bill. I heartily agree with the feeling of what you said. |
| broadcastpdx Mon Apr 10th, 2006 at 03:13 AM |
How horrible... How horribly wonderful! Shit. I remember the time Willem and I and a few people tried to start a tribe. I didn't talk to him for almost a year after that. Then there was the time Al and I got in a fight over his tribal business. I didn't talk to him for three years. Then there was the time Tony Deis and I got in a fight over our differences in opinion on the best way to run a camp. I didn't talk to him for 6 months. Now all four of us our working together on multiple projects from filmmaking, to trips to Africa, to teaching wilderness survival. Terrible things were done and said by me to my friends, and vice versa. I know this feeling of failure well. I do it everyday. You have to fail and learn from these mistakes. I hope you can all move from this with a lesson learned, and not make the same mistakes over again. Scout |
| Saline_Solution Mon Apr 10th, 2006 at 09:55 AM |
Bill is wise. |
| Nene Mon Apr 10th, 2006 at 10:06 AM |
Hey -- Bill said it best. I have watched as this whole scenario has unfolded and several times have decided to jump in -- only to find that when I was ready to do so, things had already moved far beyond where anything I could say might be useful. Ben, Miranda... I can't say that I agree that you are 'right' so much as your position was valid and the consequences of your positions seem far overblown and, in many ways, inapproriate. As events unfolded everyone involved pushed a little too hard and was little bit too unwilling to 'seek the middle', seek understanding, (dare I say) compassion and resolution. I am not now surprised to hear that this was the end result of something that had been building for a while. Without that background tension, the whole disaster seems inexplicable. I'm sorry that this has happened and I am sad to see the pain this has caused. Perhaps in time the wounds will heal and lead to a stronger foundation for everyone in thier efforts to build functional community. Janene |
| mag Mon Apr 10th, 2006 at 11:58 AM |
Ben, I'm not going to debate you on this. You had your chance to talk about it rationally. Instead, you chose the same sort of petty attacks that forced us to close two separate threads and delete another. This little hissy fit you're throwing is, quite frankly, too pathetic for me to bother responding to. I merely came here because I felt that if you're going to use IshCon as a base for your smear campaign, people here should at least be told the truth about what actually happened. And I can assure all of you that Ben's post about how Anthropik is falling apart is 100% bullshit. However, I would like to apologize to Chris. You didn't do anything to have this mess land on your doorstep, and honestly, I'm appalled that Ben and Miranda would be so disrespectful as to bring it here. Unfortunately, I'm not surprised, considering the total lack of propriety demonstrated in their recent posts on Anthropik. Anyway, for what it's worth, I'm sorry that you inherited this problem. But that's the internet for you, right? Mike |
| Menrandes Mon Apr 10th, 2006 at 12:38 PM |
Mike, it's not a smear campaign, did you read it? It's quotes, statements, reiterations of what went down on that thread on anthropik. Anyone who felt like reading it could see the exact same thing there as they could see here. |
| Bongcart Mon Apr 10th, 2006 at 01:04 PM |
Conflict is part of human nature, it cant be taken away and what a disaster it would be if it could be! (and if it was what would be? :?) |
| broadcastpdx Mon Apr 10th, 2006 at 02:31 PM |
I am thankful to Ben and Miranda for having the courage to post their experience. Ishcon is a place where Quinns ideas are discussed. Anthropik, a self proclaimed tribal business, with members on this board, should understand that they are going to be scrutinized. If you claim to be part of some ethical movement, like NTR, then you need to be ready for people to call you on your bullshit [wether you agree with them or not]. That's what these forums are for. scout |
| mag Mon Apr 10th, 2006 at 04:11 PM |
"broadcastpdx" wrote: If you claim to be part of some ethical movement, like NTR, then you need to be ready for people to call you on your bullshit [wether you agree with them or not] . That's what these forums are for. I guess I missed the part where I was called on "my bullshit." All I see are two people whining about how no one in Anthropik likes them. Now granted, it's been a while since I've read IshCon, but unless this place has turned into a goth hangout in my absence, I fail to see how that's terribly relevant. Anthropik is by no means opposed to scrutiny. I challenge you to find a single website that allows more criticism to be posted than we do. Ben and Miranda had plenty of opportunities to make any objections they had known. They chose instead to resort to petty attacks. As I said, I only joined this thread because I think people here have the right to hear the truth. If you don't believe me, that's not my concern. In fact, it's better that you not take my word for it. And certainly don't take Ben and Miranda's word for it. You can see their behavior for yourself in the relevant threads. And, unlike in Ben's reply, you can actually see the comments in their true contexts. Of course, that still doesn't do anything to refute Ben's misinformation about how Anthropik is rife with "discontent." For that, I guess you'll just have to trust the people who are actually in a position to make that sort of judgment, which doesn't include Ben or Miranda. I do agree with you on one thing, though. Ben and Miranda certainly have courage for posting their experiences the way they have. It takes a lot of balls to hijack somebody else's site, whether it's Anthropik or here on IshCon, to use as your own personal bully pulpit from which to wallow in self-pity and try to bring down everyone you can with you simply because you failed. But that doesn't change the fact that it's unproductive and unfair to Chris, to the members of Anthropik, and to the people who read these sites. And I think it's sad that they would choose to put on such a petty display. It makes Mike Holmgren look like a good sport in comparison. Mike |
| Menrandes Mon Apr 10th, 2006 at 04:17 PM |
I am honestly amazed that you believe your repetitions are showing anthropik in a light that is good, Mike. I've said before, anyone that wants to see the truth, can. And they will. They don't need Ben or myself or you to show it to them. They'll see it on their own. |
| broadcastpdx Mon Apr 10th, 2006 at 04:32 PM |
Mike. I have read both of these threads you put links to. I call it bullshit. I wasn't trying to take sides, but because of your repetitive nonsense here, and finally reading the entire thread on Anthropik... jesus. what a bunch of self important assholes that freaked out for no fucking reason other than to feel big and important; ie. not letting people into your secret nerd fest club. You're like a bunch of little boys throwing rocks at girls from your treehouse. You couldn't pay me to work with any of you. |
| twokniveskatie Mon Apr 10th, 2006 at 04:52 PM |
miranda, i am really sorry to see you hurt by all this. it must feel like you got tossed under the bus. hang in there. i hope we'll be getting together soon. |
| Beelzebozo Mon Apr 10th, 2006 at 05:33 PM |
I think Ben's mom said it best. Hang in there, Miranda. |
| mag Mon Apr 10th, 2006 at 05:58 PM |
"broadcastpdx" wrote: what a bunch of self important assholes that freaked out for no fucking reason other than to feel big and important; ie. not letting people into your secret nerd fest club. You're like a bunch of little boys throwing rocks at girls from your treehouse. Perhaps you'd like to explain in what way we "freaked out." Ben and Miranda posted comments that were completely out of line. They were told to fix the situation. They refused. They then entered a separate thread that wasn't even about them looking for a fight. They took that thread so far off-topic and filled it with so many personal insults that I was forced to close that thread as well. And at that time they were told that if they had any more personal insults, to take it off the site. They ignored that and instead chose to abuse their editor privileges to write a post denegrating the very site that had taken them in as guests and given them those privileges in the first place. A post filled with quotes taken out of context, quotes from private conversations, the singling out of one of Anthropik's guests for attack, and just pure misinformation about the internal state of Anthropik. At which point the post was deleted, and their accounts were locked to prevent further vandalization. So perhaps you can enlighten me. Where in that progression do you see any response on our part that is not perfectly appropriate and proportional? "broadcastpdx" wrote: You couldn't pay me to work with any of you. No one's asking. Mike |
| Menrandes Mon Apr 10th, 2006 at 07:29 PM |
Oh Katie, there is no way this series of unfortunate events could keep me away from any gathering :lol: And I really appreciate the support that I am finding. |
| slumberelegy Mon Apr 10th, 2006 at 08:47 PM |
Bill, your post made me stop and say to the Universe, "No matter what becomes of Anthropik, no matter who they are, or what they do, I will always be in their debt, because it was because of the tribe of Anthropik that I met Bill Maxwell." Reading your last post only drove home how great it is that you live a mere thirty minute drive away. - Chuck |
| Talvir Mon Apr 10th, 2006 at 09:55 PM |
"TwoRoadsTom" wrote: I'd like to thank you, one and all, for reminding me that we're all human...I find myself, at the end, respecting Anthropik, though I'm saddened by what happened. And I equally find myself respecting Ben and Miranda because I do understand exactly what they meant, though words get in the way sometimes. I find myself in these places because I'm ruthlessly reminded of what we're up against, a hostile mental space called Civilization that denies us sanity, companionship and a chance at harmony between us and the world. Jeez, I wish you lived closer Bill! :) Awesome post. I simply have to get down to this Pacific Northwest thing you're creating with other folks! Too bad about all the mess. My mother used to say, "things always work out in the wash" and I hope this situation works out in the wash as well. - Joe |
| jefgodesky Tue Apr 11th, 2006 at 10:27 AM |
Y'know, Ben, if you don't want to start a flame war, a good way to do that would be to ... not start a flame war. Posting that, and then saying you "don't want to start a flame war," just means you want to knock us around a little bit, and not have anyone call you on your rank bullshit. Your twelve page screed is all made up of comments out of context and conclusions you couldn't possibly know. There's only one salient fact here: Ben and Miranda betrayed us. They waited until they knew Giuli & I would be out of town, and only Mike would be there to defend against them, and that's when they struck. They've posted comments in public, and emailed me in private, hoping to use this to divide us. You have failed. As far as I'm concerned, there is no statement that Ben and Miranda can make that can ever be trusted again. Even if it is ostensibly true, this tirade shows it's just as likely to be revisionist history based on comments taken out of context. But Ben's not the only one that can reproduce his articles all around the interwebs. If he's going to be reposting this article everywhere, I see no reason why it shouldn't be accompanied by our response: ~~~~ Reports of our demise are greatly exaggerated. After the recent shameful thread and the callous remarks by Benjamin Shender and Miranda Belcher, two individuals who have never been members of the Tribe of Anthropik and were given contributor status pending their possible admission, Jason demanded that they prepare statements to try to rectify the enormous damage they had done to the tribe. Knowing that we would be out of contact on Monday, Benjamin chose to take that opportunity to post a 12-page rant, recapitulating the thread with quotes taken out of context to serve his own rhetorical purposes, quoting private emails out of context, attacking guests who have contributed to this website, and declaring the "death" of the Tribe of Anthropik. Since by his own admission, Benjamin was never privy to the internal life of the tribe (as one would expect of someone who was never a member), it's hard to tell why anyone would bother listening to his account. Being out of communication, it was left to Mike to handle this situation. Miranda and Benjamin sent messages in both public and private, hoping to divide us on this matter. Their attempts have failed. Neither of us could approve more, or be more proud, of the manner in which Mike has handled this situation. Deleting Ben's tirade, and closing the infantile flame war they initiated, was the right call, made at the right time. Tonight, I could not be more proud of the Tribe of Anthropik--we truly are a tribe, and we've never been stronger. That's a clumsy word, "tribe." It has many ambiguous meanings--ethnic groups, a level of sociopolitical organization, a deragatory ephitet, etc. It's the word Daniel Quinn uses to describe any kind of small-scale, egalitarian society--even what anthropologists would prefer to call "bands." Ethan Watters uses the term to refer to circles of friends in their capacity as almost a kind of family. Despite the problems with the term, it's stuck. Surviving collapse, and taking advantage of the opportunities it represents, requires such a social structure be created now, a new kind of social variety adapted to the new pressures of a society in collapse. Whether we call it a band, a tribe, or even a rhizome, the principle remains clear: egalitarian societies will inherit the future. The Tribe of Anthropik is attempting to create just such a society. Our model is the hunter-gatherer band. We have begun to develop our own culture to that end: our own rituals, and our own means of introducing potential new members. This is a problem extant foragers do not face: extant foragers are born into their tribes. We must face the problem of how to introduce new members. The Tribe of Anthropik was founded with the "Tyler Durden" approach to this problem, itself taken from Zen monasteries: "Tyler Durden" wrote: All right, if the applicant is young, tell him he's too young. Old, too old. Fat, too fat. If the applicant then waits for three days without food, shelter, or encouragement he may then enter and begin his training. That's not the actual, literal process, but the general idea is to distinguish from those hoping to join in our community who are committed to our community, from those hoping to reap the benefits and avoid its costs. "Ask not what your tribe can do for you; ask what you can do for your tribe." Benjamin criticizes the Tribe of Anthropik for not communicating with its candidates; that is one way we weed out the unworthy. "Operating in the dark" tests whether or not the candidate can trust the tribe. He also criticizes the tribe for not allowing him any part in the life of the tribe; this, too, is by design. Despite Benjamin's claims otherwise, the tribe does have an initiation ritual: neither he nor Miranda ever made it that far. Benjamin and Miranda never showed much interest in supporting the tribe, but they were always keen on enjoying the privelages of full membership, even though they were never actually admitted. Benjamin would like to rewrite the rules of our tribe for how candidates are evaluated, but the initiation process is determined by members, not initiates. The actual members of the tribe are fine with our process; if the initiates are not, then the initiation process gives them ample opportunity to withdraw. In granting them contributor status, the tribe placed a certain amount of trust in Benjamin and Miranda. We trusted them to contribute to make this a better place, and not to provide vindication to our most bitter and persistent critics. That trust was betrayed, first by Miranda with her careless, callous call to "Well, come on already, Collapse Already!!!" and then by Benjamin's tirade. It is true that defense of other tribe members takes high priority. Defense of those close to the tribe, as Ben and Miranda once were, is also significant, though less important than members. The only principle more important than this is defense of the tribe itself. Paul Radin's Primitive Man as Philosopher stresses the importance of personal expression in primitive societies. The only limit to personal freedom that was tolerated, was when they jeopardized the tribe itself. That is precisely what Benjamin and Miranda did. So it is true that we did not care about their feelings one whit. The Tribe of Anthropik has suffered constant attack and criticism for not caring about the destruction wrought by collapse, for being selfish and self-serving, and so on. We have been compared to Hitler, Stalin, Mao Tse Tung and the Devil. We have been accused of genocide and worse. For two years, we have fought against this monstrously slanderous perception in every way we know how, spending not only vast amounts of our time, but burning our very mental conditions down with stress and anguish over this issue. All of that, all of our sacrifice and pain, all that the actual members of the tribe had worked so hard for, was undone in a single line from Miranda's keyboard. By vindicating our enemies, they threatened the tribe itself, no less than if an intern at Planned Parenthood were to take it upon himself to issue a press release calling for every woman in America to have recreational abortions once a month--or, the example I gave to Ben and Miranda in private correspondence which Ben showed no qualms about reproducing in public, "pledges burning down the frat house." We did not defend them; they weren't even members, but even a member who committed so gross a betrayal would be hard to defend. We demanded that they make some effort to repair the damage they had done, by preparing a statement. They knew we would be out of contact this week, but we did not hear any response whatsoever prior to our departure, not even so much as an acknowledgement that they had recieved the message. Instead, waiting until we were out of contact, Benjamin abused his contributor status to post a twelve-page rant to this weblog. The only actual member of the tribe present to handle the situation was Mike. Benjamin and Miranda left comments publicly, and sent emails to us privately, hoping to drive us apart. They failed. We stand behind Mike's actions as an administrator 100%. He did precisely what we would have done, had Benjamin not timed his attack to exploit our absence. In fact, the very reception that his attacks received reveal how baseless they really are. Benjamin says that the Tribe of Anthropik is being torn apart by internal divisions, that it is already dead and he's merely offered it a swift, "compassionate," killing stroke. He says it is hierarchical, with Jason as hierarch. How he can admit that he has never even seen all of the tribe members together and then presume to make such grandiose statements about the tribe and his relation to it is incomprehensible. To be clear on the matter: neither Benjamin nor Miranda were ever members of the tribe. The tribe's demise is being called by individuals who were never part of it, never privy to its goings-on, never included in its ceremonies. They were never one of us. This rant is the product of someone on the outside. An outsider says the tribe is broken and dead. An outsider who does not know us, says we are divided. This comes as a great shock to the members of the tribe. We are united. The Tribe of Anthropik believes that a diversity of thought is a strength, not a weakness. What Benjamin calls "internal dissent," we call our greatest asset. We are, in fact, so confident in the unity of our tribe and in the strength that such diversity offers that we are not afraid to work out those differences, even in public. Once, Steve expressed some concern for how such arguments might be seen by the outside world, suggesting that some might construe them as a weakness, as Ben has. I pitied the poor fool who would mistake disagreement for division, and set himself against the strong, thinking them weak. According to Ben, Jason is the "leader" of the Tribe of Anthropik. Jason has often worried about being too much the "public face" of the tribe, the most common author on this blog, and the name most often associated with the tribe. Whatever doubts we might have harbored, though, melted in the face of how well the tribe reacted to Ben's attack. A hierarchy brooks no dissent; the Tribe of Anthropik revels in its own dissent. A hierarchy would be threatened by such dissent, precisely as Ben says the tribe is; instead, it has always been our greatest asset. Most importantly, in a hierarchy, underlings require orders from their superiors. In this particular case, only the supposed "underling" was on hand; the alleged "superior" was in communicado. Yet, Mike acted precisely as either of us would have in his position. We stand completely, unwaveringly behind Mike's decisions as administrator. We could not have asked for better. In fact, this has all left us with a great swell of pride in our tribe. The ideal is something akin to the human body itself: each of your cells contains the full genome of the human body, and though it may be best adapted to this role or that, no cell is higher or lower than any other, and each cell understands the whole. In this case, the response to this betrayal has shown that each member of the Tribe of Anthropik shares the basic ideas and understanding of our tribe so flawlessly, that when only one of us is on hand, he can be counted on to do precisely as any of the rest of us would in the same place. The response to Ben's betrayal should, in itself, be sufficient evidence that his attack is baseless--we are united, we are strong, and we have no need of leaders here, because each of us can confidently say, "I am Anthropik!" ~~~~ Ultimately, if the bulk of IshCon is gullible enough to fall for Ben and Miranda's sophistry, double-talk and outright lies, that's fine. The Tribe of Anthropik doesn't really require IshCon's approval to continue being a strong and healthy tribe. There's no betrayal, no attack that Ben or Miranda can mount--though they've tried their damnedest--that can harm us. There is no amount of your disapproval that can harm us. I'll admit that this coup was well-timed, but ultimately, it has failed. Anthropik endures. |
| ice-nine Tue Apr 11th, 2006 at 10:49 AM |
Since my other article, co-authored with Jason, focuses more on assuring everyone that Ben's slander is, in fact, incorrect, I want to present the situation as I experienced it in a more straightforward way. For years, Anthropik has struggled against the image that we are uncaring, that we long for collapse and don't even think about the deaths of billions of people. Some of you here, apparently, think it's a good thing not to care. We, however, do not, and we are the ones who have been burdened with the public perception of doing so. Miranda posted an extremely thoughtless comment. It revealed a total lack of regard for any of the billions of people who will die in the collapse. In other words, it played right into our critics' hands. We asked her to apologize, or retract, or make some kind of statement indicating that she felt bad for what she said. Not only did she not, but she and Ben dug in their heels and refused to give an inch in the ensuing debate. Miranda continued to insist that, because she was depressed, no one should hold her accountable for what she said on a serious, intellectual weblog that many people rely on for thoughtful primitivist philosophy. Ben and Miranda continued to refuse to do anything to help the situation. Jason got desperate. He was on the verge of a nervous breakdown and went off his diet because of the stress. He said so online, and also said that he and I would be in Poughkeepsie for a week, largely without Internet access. Jason really, really, REALLY needed a vacation. We had no response from Ben or Miranda until we left for Poughkeepsie. That was when Ben posted a 12-page post - both on Anthropik and on IshCon - slandering us. They also e-mailed Jason, criticizing the job Mike was doing fending them off, trying to drive the brothers apart and create SOME kind of division within the Tribe, lest readers not believe them when they say we are dying. The Tribe of Anthropik is, frankly, better off without a couple of initiates who treated a serious blog as a LiveJournal and refused to consider any damage they did to the tribe. They never cared about the tribe; they only cared about defending statements they have admitted they didn't even mean, in order to make themselves look good. So. We're two days into our "vacation" and instead of relaxing after a near nervous breakdown, Jason is trying to convince people he thought were his friends that we are not evil. I am now doing the same. Nice timing, Ben. What a good and loyal friend you are. Mike said it even better. |
| Menrandes Tue Apr 11th, 2006 at 10:57 AM |
and still, the tribe of anthropik sees it in a light in which it wasn't. yes, I said I was depressed and was looking forward to what life would be after the collapse, not during the collapse. It's a distinction and an important one, one which I have recieved attacks from by a total of 4 people now. I'm not an idiot alright? I hate public debates, yet I keep getting thrown into them. My first instinct when being forced into one is to automatically agree. No, I'm not going to apologize. Why? Because you missed the point at the beginning, and never asked. You ordered. Yes, this thing is saddening, depressing, terrible. but you know what? It's over. It's done, it's finished. Nothing left to say. |
| jefgodesky Tue Apr 11th, 2006 at 11:15 AM |
"Miranda" wrote: and still, the tribe of anthropik sees it in a light in which it wasn't. I forgot--Copernicus was wrong. The planets don't revolve around the sun; they revolve around Miranda, and if it takes the deaths of six billion human beings for Miranda to feel better, then they'd best get to dying already. And if Miranda's too self-absorbed to see the depths of her betrayal, well then, that's just seeing it in a light in which it wasn't. For Miranda is the sole arbiter of all truth, and the One Right Way to see the world is through Miranda's self-obsessed kaleidoscope. "Miranda" wrote: yes, I said I was depressed and was looking forward to what life would be after the collapse, not during the collapse. That wasn't part of your original post, and you never apologized for what you actually DID say. Nobody gives a damn what you MEANT, they care what you SAID, and if you can't say what you mean, then don't post it on the internet. What you MEANT is not what threatened the survival of our tribe; what you SAID, DID. "Miranda" wrote: It's a distinction and an important one, one which I have recieved attacks from by a total of 4 people now. Only four? Wow, you deserve a lot more. But the distinction isn't important; it's not even relevant. What you meant is meaningless. It's what you SAID. "Miranda" wrote: No, I'm not going to apologize. Why? Because you missed the point at the beginning, and never asked. You ordered. That was an order from the Tribe of Anthropik, not from me. I just delivered the message. If I "missed the point at the beginning," that's quite irrelevant. If that's not what you meant, nobody cares. The internet is not a medium for telepathy. It's what you say that matters, not what you meant. We ordered you, as a non-member, to make amends for the damage you'd done to us, the members, and to our tribe. Instead, you decided to see how much more damage you could do. "Miranda" wrote: Nothing left to say. Indeed. You and Ben stabbed us in the back. What else is there to say? |
| Menrandes Tue Apr 11th, 2006 at 11:37 AM |
I'm wondering how any of this is behind your back when Ben called you, told you get online, told you to find out what was going on, because he wanted you to know because he didn't want to do this behind your back. Hmm. something to ponder. Okay, I'm done now. I felt that anyone reading this should know that. |
| jefgodesky Tue Apr 11th, 2006 at 11:54 AM |
"Miranda" wrote: I'm wondering how any of this is behind your back when Ben called you, told you get online, told you to find out what was going on, because he wanted you to know because he didn't want to do this behind your back. You did. Three days later. Once the momentum from your coup was running down.... Another important point: Mike had called me as soon as my cell phone was in range again. All of my responses were already written hours before Ben called me. I just needed an internet connection to post them. For someone who has nothing else to say, you sure do keep talking a lot. |
| Ghost Tue Apr 11th, 2006 at 12:01 PM |
I'm torn. I feel that as a member of IshCon and one who is deeply concerned with trying to restore harmony as fast as and as much as possible, I have a responsibility to jump in and see what I can do. But as an outsider to this conflict, one who really doesn't understand what is going on and why, I really don't know what I can do to help things or if my eagerness will actually make matters worse. So I guess I'll just say some stuff and hope that it helps because I care about everyone involved in this situation. If I'm way off base or not helping, please ignore me or tell me to shut up. First of all, I would like to see an end to this flame war. This of course is not a concern of mine specific to this thread but a general reaction to this sort of thing. If this problem is indeed irreconcillable and no one involved is interested in mending what has been torn apart, then I think it is pointless to keep attacking each other. Everything has been said. I think it's best for everyone to walk away from it. If that's not the situation and people are concerned with repairing the damage, then continuing the attacks won't help anyway. Of course, I'd be an idiot if I didn't recognise that there is a lot of pain floating around. So I don't mean just bottle it all up, sit down and be quiet. That would be as foolish as it was insensitive. I merely suggest that perhaps there might be more positive ways to deal with it. Right now it's being directed at other people in a malicious way; a malice born of pain; understandable, but still hurtful. Perhaps, if people still need to purge, they can honestly tell us why they are hurt rather than why the other has behaved poorly. I hope that doesn't sound like splitting hairs. I think it's the difference between, "I am really upset and I need people to know that; I need people to know that I have a right to feel that way" vs "you're a jerk and should be punished in some manner." Does that make sense? Now, whether the particulars of this argument have anything to do with IshCon or not is irrelevant. You are all members of this community and you're having a fight here. That makes it the business of this community. I would like to offer myself to you in whatever capacity you need. As a mediator, as a friend, as a shoulder to cry on or even as a punching bag. I'd like to say something directly to you now, Jason. First, I feel very much like I have failed you as a friend. There is so much going on in your life that I know nothing about. Second, I know what it's like to have a breakdown. I think that you should take some serious time to focus on your health. Easier said than done sometimes, but I'm sure Giuli is right when she says that you need a break. You're a very fortunate man to have a woman who loves you so much. Lastly, you don't need my approval or IshCon's approval to do what you're doing. If you've felt that I haven't been giving you that support or that I have been disaproving of you, I apologise profusely. We can talk about that when you get back from your vacation. Try to relax. Try to step back from this. The truth will out. To Ben and Miranda, I just want to make it clear that that wasn't me taking sides. I hope that you trust me and believe me on that. I think that it is important now for everyone involved to step back and honestly contemplate what they want now. Where should this now go? If all anyone wants is to hurt and punish the other for what has been done, well, I hope you can be fair to this community and understand that we are the collateral damage to this war. So think about it. What's done is done. What's next? Do people want to cut ties? Burn bridges? Demand apologies? Offer apologies? Seek understanding? Seek retribution? Seek restitution? Seek the restoration of harmony? Think about it. if you think that you can work through some of those goals here then again, I offer my help in that. I don't know. I should probably shut up now. Peace and Love and Empathy, Matt |
| TwoRoadsTom Tue Apr 11th, 2006 at 12:48 PM |
Hey Matt! Nope, definitely don't need you to shut up. To everyone else, while the drama is certainly an interesting read (I'm a writer, so sue me for liking drama), it is causing too much pain in comparison to what happened. Gentle folk and participants all, First, this isn't a coup. Ben and Miranda are not cackling generals threatening to overthrow a government. And Jason isn't an evil world leader bent on world domination. These are the artifacts of hierarchy. Instead, we've got a few frustrated angry people who made a few other frustrated people angry. Divisions occured and friendship was torn apart. Jason, As someone who's done rewriting and other crap for over a decade, I can tell you that I can take your words and make a case for you being a Stalin-esque villian. If I can do it, your enemies can do it AND ALWAYS WILL BE ABLE TO! You are talking about concepts that are on the edge of mainstream. You are never going to be able to please everyone without watering down your concepts to pablum and I doubt you're ever going to do that. That being said, when your enemies do it, they will usually take your concepts out of context and you can fight it with context. I personally believe you could have done the same in this case but that's all water under the bridge now. For the gods sake, all I'm saying is it's not the end; it's not even a significant blip. Stress and the crap going on off-line makes it appear worse than it is. Just take that vacation! Anthropik will take care of itself. Ishcon will take care of Ben & Miranda. Nobody needs to be proven right in this case. Sides and lines do not need to be drawn. Ben and Miranda are not-Anthropik. Jason, Giuli, Mike & Steve are Anthropik. We get it. We're cool with it. Go relax! Your wedding is coming up, sir! Enjoy it! Best Bill Maxwell |
| prometheus235 Tue Apr 11th, 2006 at 01:10 PM |
Seems to me that: A: Al makes an appearance as the Voice of Mother Culture. Talks about how, through his Buddhism, he is light years ahead of everyone spiritually, and how sick Ben and Miranda are for “not caring enough” about 6 billion humans. Also makes derogatory comments about Anthropik, b/c they don’t live by his standard of moral judgement B: Ben and Miranda get pissed by the statements made by Al. C: they respond, and Al starts in with the “you are sick, I am so awesome b/c I care, blah blah blah.” Which just pisses them off even more. D: Anthropik has different ideas than Ben and Miranda about how much one “should” care about the 6 billion. E: everybody argues about how someone else “should” think. F: Al eggs it on, getting more and more derogatory, which is surprising for a Buddhist. Definitely the only one throwing out terms like “sub-human”. G: It becomes a duel between Anthropik and Ben and Miranda. H: Serious splits and arguments occur. So, to my point. For as smart as ya’ll are, you missed the most obvious enemy, and the one who benefited most from the tumult. Now for a bit of strategic thought. What is the best way to destroy a group? Get them to hate each other, and the group rapidly ceases to be. Good old divide and conquer. Worked for 5000 years, and I am sure it will continue to work for 5000 more. Ya’ll are smooth. You ALL (Anthropik, including Ben and Miranda) danced on the puppet master’s strings, to his tune, to his end, and don’t even realize it. Too busy stabbing each other to think about stabbing the shit-disturber who started it. Sadly, a fairly common occurrence in this world. Al, who proclaimed, from the get-go, that he was an opponent of Anthropik. The same guy who tried to take everyone in and associated with Anthropik to task for not thinking like him( didst thou forget the Buddhism debate, Jason?). Ben and Miranda fell into his trap, as did Mike. Seems to it worked, with the added benefit of keeping everyone distracted from what is really going on. Don’t be too upset though. Ya’ll aren’t the first to fall for it, nor will you be the last I do think that everyone involved (except Al) are great humans. Jason, you and Anthropik have introduced me to great ideas I was unaware of, as have Ben and Miranda. Thanks, and don’t be disheartened by the past week. Keep going, and don’t ever stop your dreams. And I would like to add, the 6 billion humans, who’s expected demise was the cause of all the argument, will all be dead 150 years from now. Some will die in their beds, and some will die in the most horrific way imaginable, and most will be somewhere in the middle. Who feels sorry for all of them if they die “naturally”, rather than in the collapse? Is the vaunted compassion, that everyone keeps throwing about, there for the unknown story of the 90 year old who dies in bed surrounded by her loving family? Or is it just for humans who die in manner you don’t like? My 23 cents, and I’ll go back to being quiet. R PS. I am ready for the inevitable “how dare you” remarks……. Enjoy!! |
| TwoRoadsTom Tue Apr 11th, 2006 at 01:23 PM |
HOW DARE YOU!!!!!! Oh wait... crap... I agree. :lol: Best Bill Maxwell |
| broadcastpdx Tue Apr 11th, 2006 at 06:48 PM |
"mag" wrote: "broadcastpdx" wrote: You couldn't pay me to work with any of you. No one's asking. Mike haha. thank GOD! |
| PermanentlyIndignant Wed Apr 12th, 2006 at 10:28 AM |
"prometheus235" wrote: Seems to me that: A: Al makes an appearance as the Voice of Mother Culture. Talks about how, through his Buddhism, he is light years ahead of everyone spiritually, and how sick Ben and Miranda are for “not caring enough” about 6 billion humans. Also makes derogatory comments about Anthropik, b/c they don’t live by his standard of moral judgement Thank you, prometheus235 for pointing out the obvious. I have been reading Anthropik since I discovered it several months ago. This is how I found out about Ishmael, and Daniel Quinn, which led me here. I used to post at peakoil.com, but there are too many trolls there. Which brings me to my point. Wikipedia defines an Internet Troll as: Quote: In Internet terminology, a troll is someone who comes into an established community such as an online discussion forum, and posts inflammatory, rude or offensive messages designed to annoy and antagonize the existing members or disrupt the flow of discussion This certainly describes Al, and than the arrogant prick posts what happended on his blog, I guess to brag about how cool headed he is, and how people need to "take a deep breath". Please. Trolls add nothing to the discussion, they only detract from it, and turn it into a flame war. That being said, I think it is crazy for you guys to be doing this if the reason is simply that Ben and Miranda wrote something that offended a troll. However, if the incident was merely the straw that broke the camels back, than, that is understandable. It reminds me of the section in "The Story of B" called "fun with marxists". Most people, including mystery boy, Al, get really upset at the notion of producing less food, so we produce less people. But, of course, this is exactly the point Quinn is making. I agree with Miranda's original post, which Jason has called "monstrous" and "sick". The reason is, that it seems many folks, like Al, who work for Microsoft, or whatever other huge corporation, who earn a good salary and consider themselves "succesful", can not bear to have that stature taken away from them. If they recognize a problem, they become "Buddhists" or start giving money to charity. But these are only ways to work within the hierarchy, and perpetuate the mysery that our society continue to reap upon most of the world. Ishmael said that Copernicus' followers didn't go up to people and shake them and say, "You're wrong", they told people to just look, look at what is there, not what you are told. Al's view of the world is that 6.5 billion people live on a planet that has some problems, but nothing that isn't being fixed!, heck, if we just all donate to the Bill and Melinda Gates foundation, and become Buddhists, everything will fix itself. Work within the system, because wishing it to collapse would mean the death of billions. This is folly. Take a look at worldwide poverty statistics: http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Facts.asp#fact6 Or the fact that every cow on the planet is better fed and taken care of than 50% of humanity: http://www.globalpolicy.org/socecon/develop/2002/0822cows.htm I think sometimes, the specialization involved with the study of Anthropology, much like the study of Physics, Quantum Physics, Divinity, etc., leads really smart people to make conclusions about the world, that are unrealistic as a result of viewing it through the lense of their particular discipline. In order to understand what is happening today, you need to view the world through all disciplines, or as many as you can gain a rudamentary understanding of. The point is, our society, call it capitalism, or empire, or whatever, is destroying not only the earths life support system, but is has enslaved most of the planet. Do you think the clothes we wear were made by free men and women? The earth is covered with slave colonies, 86% of the wolrds resources are consumed by 20% of the population, and it is getting worse every year. Take a look at this new documentary, called "Darwins Nightmare" http://www.coop99.at/darwins-nightmare/darwin/html/startset.htm I wrote about it and some other geopolitical issues, which are always swept under the carpet by the imperial US media, on my blog www.permanentlyindignant.wordpress.com Civilization as it stands today, is currently in the process of extinguishing the lives of millions, all for profit. We are all responsible, and wishing it to stop, to stop pouring our poisons into the earth, stop destroying the biosphere, to end the slavery of the majority of the human race, is not montrous, or sick. It is necessary. The longer it goes on, the worse it will be when it does collapse. And the funny thing is, to use Africa as an example, when left to their own devices, most Africans will fare better than Americans, because all of their survival skills have not been bred out of them, and when the global economy fails, the richness of Africa's resources, will once again belong to Africans, instead of gluttonous westerners like Al, who give lip service to "caring for people" but can't even see the galring reality behind their own lifesyle. Al thinks that people who can't earn $100,000 a year are "unsuccessful" and so bitter, that they wish death upon others. I say, if you earn $100,000 you have a much bigger footprint than Melinda and Ben, and you're impact on the 80% of the humans on earth who live in abject povery, is that much greater. Buddhism and other "revealed" religions are fixtures of any hierarchal system, and as Quinn describes, they get people to believe that life, is anywhere but here on earth, whether it exists within yourself, or in heaven, or nirvana, it is certainly not here, so work your waking life away, so you can retire when you are old and decrepit, and write your memoirs about how "successful" you were in life, and dream of the paradise that awaits you in the afterlife, and all along perpetuating the sytem of domination of survival over life. To Jason, I say stop pandering to trolls. You don't need to make everybody happy, and you don't need to worry about offending people. I reccomend your "thirty theses" to everyone I know who is open minded. I enjoy the fact that you have something to say that others are offended by. Keep it up, I would argue that the more people you piss off, the better, remember what Gandhi said, first they ignore you, than they laugh at you, than they attack you, than you win. Unpopular ideas are the only way to change the way people think, by definition. Popular ideas are ruining the world, as are the individuals who subscribe to them. "Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocre minds. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence.." -Albert Einstein |
| ice-nine Wed Apr 12th, 2006 at 10:57 AM |
"broadcastpdx" wrote: [quote:1b2802c76b="mag"] "broadcastpdx" wrote: You couldn't pay me to work with any of you. No one's asking. Mike haha. thank GOD![/quote] I like how you chose to respond to the least relevant part of Mike's post, while conveniently ignoring this part: Quote: Perhaps you'd like to explain in what way we "freaked out." Ben and Miranda posted comments that were completely out of line. They were told to fix the situation. They refused. They then entered a separate thread that wasn't even about them looking for a fight. They took that thread so far off-topic and filled it with so many personal insults that I was forced to close that thread as well. And at that time they were told that if they had any more personal insults, to take it off the site. They ignored that and instead chose to abuse their editor privileges to write a post denegrating the very site that had taken them in as guests and given them those privileges in the first place. A post filled with quotes taken out of context, quotes from private conversations, the singling out of one of Anthropik's guests for attack, and just pure misinformation about the internal state of Anthropik. At which point the post was deleted, and their accounts were locked to prevent further vandalization. So perhaps you can enlighten me. Where in that progression do you see any response on our part that is not perfectly appropriate and proportional? You obviously have no interest in hearing our side of the story, considering whether or not the first side you heard may be wrong, or fairly giving anyone's perspective a hearing. You desire only to judge others basd on someone else's words, then toss snide insults at them. Hardly an attitude usually associated with tribalism. |
| prometheus235 Wed Apr 12th, 2006 at 11:36 AM |
Nice work, Permanently Idignant. I especially liked the part about not pandering to detractors. I say fuck em, too. Let em talk shit, b/c we can tell how shitty they are by how bad their breath stinks. I am the king of pointing out the obvious, especilaly when humans have obviously missed the obvious, obviously..... R |
| Talvir Wed Apr 12th, 2006 at 11:45 AM |
Hey folks, Using tribalism as a model*, I think it may make sense for us to come to a consensus about what should be done about this issue as it relates to Ishcon. For my part, I think this thread should be locked, as it only seems to be creating more antagonism. Could someone who understands tribes explain how they think tribes would deal with this sort of situation? As I understand it, tribes dealt with these things in such a way that the "integrity" of the tribe was maintained, and the approach was not to punish but to heal. If someone could elaborate, that would be great. - Joe ______ * given, Ishcon is not a tribe. This does not mean we cannot use tribal approaches. |
| jefgodesky Wed Apr 12th, 2006 at 11:56 AM |
You're right, in general, tribes try to rectify the situation, rather than punish the "criminals." Of course, there's always a small class of crimes that are too heinous to rectify within the tribe. The only example I know of is betrayal of the tribe--an act that endangers the survival of the tribe itself. There may be other, similarly heinous crimes, but I don't know of any. In those cases, the criminals were generally exiled, since no rectification was possible, and any further tolerance would jeopardize the survival of everyone in the tribe. |
| nomad411 Wed Apr 12th, 2006 at 12:22 PM |
"Talvir" wrote: Hey folks, Using tribalism as a model*, I think it may make sense for us to come to a consensus about what should be done about this issue as it relates to Ishcon. Here is my view on a possible way to work through conflicts, within teh confines of this virtual tribe we're in. I say tribe because if it weren't, we wouldn't be here caring and trying to help, understand, etc.. My view on tribal conflict resolution is that a discussion must happen, a public one since what affects one, affects all. The best arena for it seems to me be the IRC chat room. I suggested that a long time ago I believe. I suggest a time be set, a moderator be agreed upon, and that both injured parties have all the say they want, with the interested rest of us there to listen, advise, counsel. In real life, I woudl say that this palabre would go on until all involved were happy with a resolution, with breaks of course. Everyone should be happy with the closure, unless one party is so proven to be in the wrong and not willing to face up to it that the group may end up expelling someone for a time, always with the option of take back. No one has murdered anyone here. :) My 2 canadian cents G |
| JCamasto Wed Apr 12th, 2006 at 01:02 PM |
I think the whole thing snowballed into something much bigger than it really is, because of exclusive reliance/dependence on words on a screen - and no allowance for any mistake or misunderstanding to temper views once things started rolling down hill. To try to work it out in a virtual chat session would narrow the blinders so tightly that i'm afraid no-one will be able to be seen for who they are, at all. -Jim |
| Talvir Wed Apr 12th, 2006 at 01:06 PM |
"JCamasto" wrote: I think the whole thing snowballed into something much bigger than it really is, because of exclusive reliance/dependence on words on a screen - and no allowance for any mistake or misunderstanding to temper views once things started rolling down hill. To try to work it out in a virtual chat session would narrow the blinders so tightly that i'm afraid no-one will be able to be seen for who they are, at all. Hey Jim, Hmm. Ok. What actions would you like to see taken? - Joe |
| Hypnopompia Wed Apr 12th, 2006 at 01:22 PM |
In this case a face-to-face facilitation would probably be one of the better methods. But I'd say that we probably need to let the anger cool off before such a thing would be too terribly productive. Face-to-face shouting matches are even worse than online ones. |
| nomad411 Wed Apr 12th, 2006 at 01:52 PM |
"JCamasto" wrote: I think the whole thing snowballed into something much bigger than it really is, because of exclusive reliance/dependence on words on a screen - and no allowance for any mistake or misunderstanding to temper views once things started rolling down hill. That's probably right, though I'm way too far removed to judge of anything. "JCamasto" wrote: To try to work it out in a virtual chat session would narrow the blinders so tightly that i'm afraid no-one will be able to be seen for who they are, at all. In this case yes, especially since all involved have actually met in 3D life, but as I said, within the confine of this "virtual" tribe, I think the chat room is one way. I wonder many people can talk on skype at once? :) Agreed that real life is definitely always better, much.. From what I've read from Ben and Jason, Ibelieve that they are both mature, intelligent beings who will find a way to come to proper resolve. I also believe they both have the groups interests at heart, above their own. Hey! Look at me, I'm a believer.. Good thing is, neither belongs to the tribe of A.R. Busto, so, no nuke! ;) |
| broadcastpdx Wed Apr 12th, 2006 at 02:41 PM |
Ice, I felt I didn't have to since everyone else on this thread is saying the same thing. But, I'll indulge you for the simple reason that I get off on reading my own posts. Quote: So perhaps you can enlighten me. Where in that progression do you see any response on our part that is not perfectly appropriate and proportional? The response to Miranda's initial post. You simply misunderstood her, or not. Either way it was abusive to her. If you misunderstood her, what kind of a way is it to freak out and dismiss her comments like you are the authority on the subject? What right do you have as master of Taker mythology? Just because you have some fucking website and 30 feces? That's bullshit. Say you didn't misunderstand and you used this as a platform to intentionally provoke her and Ben, knowing after the tension between them and you was there... maybe trying to scare them off? And then there's this whole element of the "Ethics of Collapse." Who the fuck is Jason to say what is HUMAN and what is not? Fuck him. It is obvious he is the one writing the rule book over there. I mean, unless this was just some shitty attempt to "cover your tracks" for intentionally attacking Miranda because there was tension and he saw the opportunity. As far as what Miranda and Ben did, supposedly waiting until you were gone to post what had happened... Haha! That's awesome. If it's true, nice work guys! Miranda's post supposedly crushed what had taken you YEARS to accomplish... one sentence crushed your entire persona? That is weak, and not true. It's over-reacting, acting like it was a huge deal because you were looking for a chance to give her the boot. You know, I have a non-profit that advocates for collapse... yet not one has EVER accused us of being monsters... It doesn't sound like they betrayed the tribe at that point. It sounded more like they abandoned their attempts to join, and let it be known what might happen if the next person came along and was interested in joining this alleged "tribe." Why would we lock this thread? This is not anthropik. This is Ishcon; where people discuss the ideas of Daniel Quinns books, wether they agree on them or not. You have supposedly based your organization off of his tribal business model. You won't allow discourse on your own site, but you can't stop discussions here just because you're regulars. I for one, am learning leaps and bounds from this thread. I get to learn from other peoples faliures, and reflect on my own. |
| tonyz Wed Apr 12th, 2006 at 05:12 PM |
hmmmm.... hmmmm.... (calmly stroking beard) Ben, Do you believe that our and others' actions on the behalf of the "confederation" provoked this? Did anyone notice that Anthropik had already planned on kicking out Ben and Miranda? Funny they hadn't told them this while for the last two weeks I have been having wonderful conversations about collaborating on hosting a summer festival on the behlaf of the confederation. What I want to know, is that if Ben and Miranda were already rejected applicants, why were they allowed to continue progressing on these matters? I suppose it is these very activities that led to the tension that led to the fallout. The tribe of Anthropik will survive, I'm sure of it, the investment made is overwhelming, but there will be no Appalachian Confederation. As someone who has been kicked off his own island before because the power relationships weren't equal, I know how it hurts to wake up in the morning and realize you were never in control in the first place. but it's an educational lesson, I guess. still hurts. And, some of the stuff Jason said was just seriously fucked up; "Jason" wrote: So, I'm not interested in excuses. You did major damage to the tribe. Your feelings are irrelevant at the moment. Prepare responses to fix this situation. ... When I open the comments back up, there'd better be some fucking poetry coming out of all of you, showing that you understand the other side, where they're coming from, and ESPECIALLY that you understand the enormity of what we're talking about here. Start writing it now, it's gotta be the most fucking nuanced piece you've ever written to even start to repair the damage your careless, callous actions have caused. "Ben" wrote: Quite frankly this is unacceptable, insulting, and contrary to the very nature of a tribe I couldn't agree more. Although, I must say, part of the popularity of Anthropik, and certainly any "federation" is due to my falling out with Chris over what Ishcon could and couldn't be. So, perhaps, the Bards will now become stronger? Love and Strength, and Hope, TonyZ |
| nomad411 Wed Apr 12th, 2006 at 05:25 PM |
"tonyz" wrote: So, perhaps, the Bards will now become stronger? /me does the wave I still hold dear the whole bardhood concept.. G |
| Menrandes Wed Apr 12th, 2006 at 05:34 PM |
Tony, you are one of my favorite people ever. :D |
| TwoRoadsTom Wed Apr 12th, 2006 at 05:39 PM |
I agree. We need more Bards for this. |
| tonyz Wed Apr 12th, 2006 at 06:06 PM |
Dang Miranda, thanks :oops: <--- a blush, not an oops! We need new ways of telling our stories, we need to express ourselves creatively, and we need a clearinghouse for all of this. If we want to be messengers, then we must begin to write a message! A painting... A song... A movie... A book? how books have I already written to the choir? hmmm, average 500 words per post, times 2300 posts, equals lots of bad-edited reading material. i realize it all boils do to preaching to the choir, but I believe a site where creativity is king would welcome authors in a new light where the blogs and forums have failed us... these are the directions I want to head now that I have been initiated into the mysteries of Mother Culture. oooo... that paradigm shift is already rumbling....can you feel it? |
| TwoRoadsTom Wed Apr 12th, 2006 at 06:13 PM |
I agree with paintings, songs, movies. Books? Well, we do a lot of writing here. Let's stimulate our juice in other areas :) But... having said that... Comic books? :) Best Bill Maxwell ON EDIT: Hey... maybe "Little Monkey" could learn at the feet of Gorilla? |
| broadcastpdx Wed Apr 12th, 2006 at 06:15 PM |
Anybody watch the urban scout movie yet? wait till you see the feature length. Anybody want to read the script so far? |
| nomad411 Wed Apr 12th, 2006 at 06:22 PM |
"tonyz" wrote: We need new ways of telling our stories, we need to express ourselves creatively, and we need a clearinghouse for all of this. Funny you bring up the idea of a clearinghouse, I'm presently working on just that. I'm presently trying to kickstart a real community that I can physically belong to, now that I moved back home to the east coast, by first creating a virtual one. Community (Come-Unity) will be encouraged as much as possible, even in deciding on what content stays or goes. I see learning tools, manuals, videos, on subjects from solar to humanure. Real experiments that will be shared and documented. The CMS software I use to develop website is specifically geared towards helping non-profit and community-driven groups, having modules like "Book", a module which allows for groups to work on writing books collaboratively. I'll explain my plan here at some point, I'd really love to hear what Ishconners have to say about it. It's still percolating in my head while I work away at earning cash to live while developing a funding source for this community. I'll post it here soon I hope, if I can find more time. G |
| TwoRoadsTom Wed Apr 12th, 2006 at 06:22 PM |
Hey Scout, Sure. Send it along to the Hollywood writer. I won't steal anything in it. I promise. :) Best Bill Maxwell |
| broadcastpdx Wed Apr 12th, 2006 at 06:33 PM |
haha. well, it's copy righted anyway, so don't make to sue your ass! send me an e-mail at: urbanscout at gmail dot com and I'll send the script your way. if i don't forget! |
| odb_fan_1 Wed Apr 12th, 2006 at 06:43 PM |
"mag" wrote: If you're done with your not-so-little pity party... holy shit! COSIGNED. a 15 page retort? I couldn't even finish the post I just quoted from. the only people that i'm pissed off at are the people who were crazy enough to tell ben that he writes well. prescription: several doses of succinct. on edit: Quote: We had decided shortly before this incident began that your request for membership was going to be denied. a-hahahahahahahahahahahaahaha Dude. I dont even know what the hell is 1) wrong with the world or 2) wrong with me. Isn't this camp (the grande camp) supposed to be a little more straight than the fucktarded culture at large? Membership?!?!?!?! to a pretend tribe?!?!?!?!?!?!?! WHAT THE FUUUCKCKCKCKCKCKCKCKCKCKCKCKCKCKC!!! HAS THE WHOLE FUCKING WORLD GONE CRAZY!??!?!?!?!! Are ya'll 4 years old? Diffuse innovation, but quit trying to write books. If anthropik failed you'd all cry because it's your attempt to make something out of your worthless lives. without your arguments you'd be a bunch of worthless and lonely assholes. |
| Menrandes Wed Apr 12th, 2006 at 06:51 PM |
holy crap! needless antagonism! Oh where would the world be without you.. oh oh.. Ben, I like the way you write. :D I've told you this before. Well, guess that makes me crazy, right? Oh well, too bad for me I guess. someone must be angry at me now. |
| odb_fan_1 Wed Apr 12th, 2006 at 06:56 PM |
ohhHhHHh GarRshH miranda! you're too cute! a-hahahahahahahahaha |
| broadcastpdx Wed Apr 12th, 2006 at 07:15 PM |
Odb, I wish you lived in Portland! You could come to my weekly haters club, where we sit around and hate. But, you'd still have to apply for membership. Hater Scout |
| Hypnopompia Wed Apr 12th, 2006 at 07:22 PM |
Yeah, the Bards would have been useful in this situation. I'm kind of pulled with where to take them now. I feel like putting stories to paper almost jails them. I like living stories in one person's mind being actively created in the mind of another. But there is only so far a verbal story can reach in this world without a recording. For the record it's only 11 pages at 12 pt type. Also, if you didn't read it, how do you know it's quality? If you have specific critiques I'd like to hear them though. It's a little over 5500 words total, it takes less than 20 minutes to read in full. |
| nomad411 Wed Apr 12th, 2006 at 07:53 PM |
"Hypnopompia" wrote: it takes less than 20 minutes to read in full. I have 20 minutes, ship me it :) |
| Hypnopompia Wed Apr 12th, 2006 at 08:34 PM |
"nomad411" wrote: [quote:9e97be1a9f="Hypnopompia"] it takes less than 20 minutes to read in full. I have 20 minutes, ship me it :)[/quote] It's the initial post on this thread. |
| Talvir Wed Apr 12th, 2006 at 10:04 PM |
"broadcastpdx" wrote: Anybody watch the urban scout movie yet? wait till you see the feature length. Anybody want to read the script so far? I saw the preview on your blog. Pretty cool :) Sure, I'll fire you an email for the script. - Joe |
| KaitiakiII Thu Apr 13th, 2006 at 10:44 AM |
Let's see if this works... This is Steve Thomas. I've been what you call "out of the loop"--that is, I've been desperately busy with my 2nd eviction in 2 months and a term paper (20 pages on Jacques Derrida, good times roll) etc etc. And today I turned to Ishcon & Anthropik to find-- This bunch of fucking nonsense. Lately my thoughts have been turning in a few directions, though I'm nowhere near anything like a conclusion. But the one thing that seems more and more apparent to me is that I myself don't have a goddam fucking clue. About much of anything. I possess a degree in Anthropology and what you might call an "overabundance of schooling." And a heap of questions. And that's pretty much it. I'm having difficulty articulating where these thoughts are taking me. In the beginning of this thread Ben writes about Mike and I not wanting to have much to do with him. Should we leave that aside? What are the facts here? I don't fucking know. They include, surely, the fact that I was never informed about any Tribe-Of-Anthropik decision regarding anything. They should probably include the fact that Ben and Miranda were willing to spend a day helping me move (eviction #2) which tells us something either about their character or mine or "the tribe" 's. They include the fact that I can't stand a word that Ben has written, or more appropriately, the tone he's written it in; that the same goes for a lot of what I've read here--including Tony's statements, which I found dripping in holier-than-thou. I think I'm seeing a lot of people who can't communicate hurling useless words at each other. And that includes me at the moment. I'm reacting, not responding, and reactions are rarely helpful--but IF this discussion is happening, and if furthermore we wish to reach something like understanding, then I'd like my own input to be a part of it. -Steve |
| TwoRoadsTom Thu Apr 13th, 2006 at 11:50 AM |
Hey, On a semi-off note, I'm sorry to hear about the evictions. It rings a resonance to me because I had to go through it relatively recently with my entire family. 7 people thrown out. What a pain in the ass! And with that, you didn't deserve to get thrown into the middle of this. :( Best Bill Maxwell |
| Talvir Thu Apr 13th, 2006 at 12:37 PM |
"TwoRoadsTom" wrote: I agree with paintings, songs, movies. Books? Well, we do a lot of writing here. Let's stimulate our juice in other areas :) Hey Bill, I've been working on some, umm, songs. - Joe |
| JCamasto Thu Apr 13th, 2006 at 12:50 PM |
Hey, Steve, it's good to hear you again - despite the circumstances. "KaitiakiII" wrote: Let's see if this works... This is Steve Thomas. I've been what you call "out of the loop"--that is, I've been desperately busy with my 2nd eviction in 2 months and a term paper (20 pages on Jacques Derrida, good times roll) etc etc. And today I turned to Ishcon & Anthropik to find-- This bunch of fucking nonsense. Oh, my. The web "post-game" is how you became aware of what went down? I was wondering what the other 1/4 of Anthropik had to say... "KaitiakiII" wrote: Lately my thoughts have been turning in a few directions, though I'm nowhere near anything like a conclusion. But the one thing that seems more and more apparent to me is that I myself don't have a goddam fucking clue. About much of anything. I possess a degree in Anthropology and what you might call an "overabundance of schooling." And a heap of questions. And that's pretty much it. Right there with you. For me, over time, I've become even more uncertain about most things. These are crazy times. The more uncertain I am that anyone's opinion is "right" (especially mine), the more flexible, adaptable, and tolerant - I believe I become. Less likely to lock-on/settle-for a dead end path... "KaitiakiII" wrote: I'm having difficulty articulating where these thoughts are taking me. In the beginning of this thread Ben writes about Mike and I not wanting to have much to do with him. Should we leave that aside? What are the facts here? Nobody's got anything but speculation beyond "he says-she says". I doubt we are ever gonna have anything more solid. Frankly, it's none of my business - but I remain concerned for all parties involved. I've kept out of it - but that doesn't mean I appreciate what I seem to be smelling.... "KaitiakiII" wrote: but IF this discussion is happening, and if furthermore we wish to reach something like understanding, then I'd like my own input to be a part of it. Absolutely. -Jim |
| tonyz Thu Apr 13th, 2006 at 01:39 PM |
If you mean generally holier-than-thou, yeah I know I come off that way. But I'm a product of my self-directed upbringing, didn't pick up too many ettiquette lessons, I got all my humility out there in the real worlds. As far as my two contributions to this conversation so far, I would say I am a little presumptious in assuming I can see where things are heading, but I have to be a little presumptious, don't I? I find myself again on the cup of change and am just looking at ways to learn from my past. I can see you are struggling to know what you are feeling, I'm sorry my rhetoric stood out enough to be made example of. But remember, I'm a little burned by this whole thing, and I have some anger. ben and I have been developing a really good friendship reently, and I even made arrangements to leave my job two weeks early so that I didn't miss the initial steps made for the confederation. Call me presumptious, but I felt like I had as much ownership of the confederation as Jason or you or anyone else that was there in West Virginia, and even in Pennsylvania. And New Years? To watch Ben, and by association, myself and my clan, get swept out of that supposed coalition, my world is just as upside down. The sun festival was something I feel like I was really going to be part of, this was something I was willing to commit to. So as Jason has made his napoleonic slide, we've just taken our goodwill towards people, and the plans we have already made, somewhere else. Our festival will still happen, our planning will not be in vain. I my sound like an outsider chiming in, but this whole shakedown literally effects the way I have been viewing the world. I imagined bunkering up with Jason and crew to fight off some sort of Postman-esque situation. I imagined sharing and trading within this confederation. I sold many people in my non-internet life on the need to have a regional village. So, my lessons, and lesions, are still fresh and still happening. I'm sure a few more wounds and a few more knowledges are still in store for me, I just want you to know that, and that I have empathy for I too have felt in the middle. But my loyalties have been relatively easy for me to calculate. Thanks for listening to my holier-than-thou self I hope this post finds everyone well. Love, Strength, Friendship, TonyZ |
| KaitiakiII Thu Apr 13th, 2006 at 02:20 PM |
Tony-- I appreciate knowing where you're coming from. I think your post made it clearer, and I'm sorry for simply dismissing you as "holier-than-thou." When you say "I felt like I had as much ownership of the confederation as Jason or you or anyone else that was there in West Virginia," I understand your sentiment--I think--completely. That was my understanding too; my hope or ideal, too. I don't know who is insisting that is not the case, or who is claiming ownership. On the other hand, I don't really have an interest in "primitive" tribalism or anarchy anymore. I absolutely don't have any interest in a group that says "this is what we are, and this is the way we get what we need to eat" beyond the basic tribe/rhizome structure and a commitment to sustainability. My own idea of what a regional network would look like seems to be different from either yours, or Jason's...and I'm absolutely *not* interested in civilizational collapse as an end, a hope, or an inevitability. So maybe the best thing for me to do is to bow out of this conflict. -Steve |
| Nene Thu Apr 13th, 2006 at 02:44 PM |
Hey -- Steve, its good to hear from you again. Terrible that this is the situation into which you emerged... and equally so that things have been so rough for you this past year... but Jim pretty well covered all of my responses to all of those things... I am curious to hear more about where you are 'at' now. So even you feel it best to bow out of the conflict, i hope you will come around and 'chat' with us about your current ideas/direction/interests. Janene |
| tonyz Thu Apr 13th, 2006 at 03:44 PM |
sometimes I forget that not all information is shared by all. basically, with the confederation, only tribes can join, only the tribe already joined can accept other tribes, and anthropik sits on top of this decision making process, so they control that federation as I read it with the new revisions to the rules of membership on the confederation wiki page. http://appalachian.wikispaces.com/Applying+for+Membership Ben was told fairly explicitly that his any application from any tribe he would be in would probably get denied. So, it's that one-man, one-voice, one-grudge situation that I feel rips me right out of any seat I THOUGHT I had when it came having a say about the confederation. plus, as the emotional dust settles, and our eyes are clear, we are realizing what works and doesn't work. But for now, all of us, starving for that new paradigm, are declaring themselves beyond all models and searching for new ones. Steve, I hope your new model is peacful, reasonate, and strong! I actually don't know what I want from a regional concept other than song, dance, and food! TonyZ |
| KaitiakiII Thu Apr 13th, 2006 at 04:27 PM |
Tony--From where I stand, those are 3 noble goals to pursue. (!) I don't know what I envision at this point. I think we have at least one good model--"the tribe"--for how to..."get what we want." I think we should be willing to be completely flexible in what sources we use. There's the infrastructures ("natural" and "industrial;" foraging, agriculture, capitalism) that exist, and there are the ones we can create using a whole great range of techniques like permaculture and so many others (passive solar design, earthships, strawbale homes, rooftop gardens...natural capitalism, participatory economics, neighborhood associations...). Allowed to grow disorganized and across many fronts and vectors it would all amount, I would hope, to a host of multiple pressures on the system such-as-it-is, a "withering of the state from within," no need for the old solutions of 1. the revolution or 2. the commune allowing a gradual emergence of a fully--let's just say "good"--way of life as this one crumbles under its own weight, evolves into something better, is abandoned as useless, or becomes actually useful. ...that's where my thoughts are, and of course they could change any time. Maybe by tomorow. Either way--it would be unethical I think of me to continue about this without talking it over with Jason, but in the Confederation model--that's an old-fashioned recipe for building a hierarchy. I mean that literally; I recall somewhat similar patterns--older groups monopolizing good land as new groups attempted to emigrate--being shown as the precursor to hierarchy in some spots in Mesoamerica in one of my archaeology seminars. Also, if I can pretend for one more moment to have a right to etic analysis of a conflict I'm taking part in, this "power struggle" might also be pretty typical of how leadership works in band/tribal societies. Thank you, Janene. This last year has been a fucking roller coaster. With too many plunges. Into violence, and mental illness, and lawsuits, betrayals, drama. One bright spot. I'm about to go meet her for some food, and drinks. Hopefully there will be music. More later. Steve |
| TwoRoadsTom Thu Apr 13th, 2006 at 05:22 PM |
You know, reading through the recent posts, I can't help but think of Fukuoka (I know he has some fans here). I'm just finishing his 1996 book "The Ultimatum of Kami" (kami being god=nature) Fukuoka went through, for lack of better words, a shamanic initiation -- a serious illness which led to a sudden blinding connection to the world around him. He understood that man's knowledge was nothing compared to the world's and gave up his path as a plant pathologist for something new. He created "Nature Farming", a non-invasive technique that became the precursor to modern permaculture. Now, why am I babbling about this? I want to do a quick walkthrough of his life. Enmeshed in Mother Culture, he suddenly encountered something that forced a complete mind-change (anyone here been through that? :lol: ). So, the first thing he did was quit his job and move onto his family's farm. "Let everything grow according to Nature!" he proclaimed! And then watched as his family's entire orchard of mandarin oranges promptly died. Okay... that didn't work. So he set about to figuring out what went wrong. He discovered that we've gotten things so far away from a normal order, you need to pay attention to the land. He came up with the Fukuoka method and spent 50 years, talking to people about it. His farm, after about a decade of struggles and experimentation, became a paradise. But, the Method didn't take hold in many places and people spent their time arguing over ways to modify it -- conventional ways -- to get it to work. Fukuoka finally figured out what he'd done wrong all those years. He was talking to people about a method when he should have been showing them a way of life. That, I think is what we're doing here. We've had our mind-change and we're looking for something different. We immediately cast about looking at old workable models and instantly cling to those, from anthropology, from sociology, from tribal lore. And then we cringe when the fruit of our labor dies. Some of us stumble across the little kernel that makes our own peculiar situation work. But when we talk about it, we talk about the method rather than just sharing. I don't know; maybe I'm not making sense. Maybe I'm seeing metaphors where none exist. But here's a possible formula (oh shit! Not another method), at the very least for conversation (it's based on Fukuoka's seedballs from Ultimatum of 'God Nature'): The fertile 'soil' of the past (tribal examples, soc, anthro, Quinn, etc) Seeds of the future (us) Things that heal the land around us. Ways to shelter us (our myths, memes etc). Ways to defend us (something that makes our way of life ignored by hostile forces) Something to shelter us and nurture us until the coming storm, when we can grow into something new (the 'clay' that holds us together). That's all for the moment. Best Bill Maxwell |
| Talvir Sat Apr 15th, 2006 at 01:22 AM |
"TwoRoadsTom" wrote: ...Fukuoka went through, for lack of better words, a shamanic initiation -- a serious illness which led to a sudden blinding connection to the world around him. He understood that man's knowledge was nothing compared to the world's and gave up his path as a plant pathologist for something new. He created "Nature Farming", a non-invasive technique that became the precursor to modern permaculture. Hey Bill, I hadn't heard about how that all went down - thanks for explaining! Quote: "Bill"]...He was talking to people about a method when he should have been showing them a way of life. That's the feeling I am getting from Holmgren's book Permaculture: Principles and Pathways - Holmgren seems to be getting away from "first you do this, and then you do that" and more onto a "this is how I think about living this way". "Bill" wrote: We've had our mind-change and we're looking for something different. We immediately cast about looking at old workable models and instantly cling to those, from anthropology, from sociology, from tribal lore. And then we cringe when the fruit of our labor dies. [whining] But Bill! It's all supposed to work, I don't want to have to fail! WaaaaaaaaH! [/whining] Very excellent point. Hrm... "Bill" wrote: The fertile 'soil' of the past (tribal examples, soc, anthro, Quinn, etc) Seeds of the future (us) Things that heal the land around us. Ways to shelter us (our myths, memes etc). Ways to defend us (something that makes our way of life ignored by hostile forces) Something to shelter us and nurture us until the coming storm, when we can grow into something new (the 'clay' that holds us together). Man I suck with metaphors :( (rhetorical: who was it that wrote that article about modern people forgetting how to understand metaphors...?). Hmm. I think I get this...? Basically, we need to mix this all together and come up with something that works for us - something old, something new, something broken (but fixable) and something new (but not simply because it's new, rather because it's useful in the transition to sustainability). - Joe |
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